Around Baseball 2023

[connorp]

the fact is (and you've pointed this out) we don't know the facts of Bauer. There are still 3 other accusers as well. What buried him may actually be the details and how they pertain to the policy.

 

Dude what buried him was the accusations (many of the alleged worst acts like broken jaw and punching in the pussy untrue) and the pictures which proved to be highly questionable at the least as well. It was judge, jury, executioner from tru beginning. If you choose not to admit that, that’s for you. But by the time the alternative facts started coming out, it was too late

[connorp]

If cancel culture was that prevalent on these boards, you wouldn't still be here.

 

Laila is actually a secret fan in case you didn’t know

[Spanky__99]

I agree with connor on Bauer, he was tried and buried as soon as the allegations came out.

[Pendleton]

I agree with connor on Bauer, he was tried and buried as soon as the allegations came out.

 

Ok but the reactions to the Clevinger news here, were hardly enough to set off on a big rant about cancel culture. Essentially just a bunch of "wow what a POS if true" and a some talk about who owns him in the board fantasy leagues. There were more pitchforks out over a guy trolling the boards.

[Spanky__99]

Ok but the reactions to the Clevinger news here, were hardly enough to set off on a big rant about cancel culture. Essentially just a bunch of "wow what a POS if true" and a some talk about who owns him in the board fantasy leagues. There were more pitchforks out over a guy trolling the boards.

 

This is true. connor foams at the mouth for this s***.

[connorp]

This is true.

 

Well, I never really “defended” the guy. I just said hold off on convicting him until it all comes out

 

That’s basically amounts to defending nowadays

[John_Havok]

I don't have a problem giving players a pity vote when you 100% know they won't have a chance and you aren't sacrificing someone you think is more deserving to do so.

 

Pity votes are the same as participation medals. The fact they got their names on the ballot is recognition enough.

[Spanky__99]

Well, I never really “defended” the guy. I just said hold off on convicting him until it all comes out

 

That’s basically amounts to defending nowadays

 

lol... never said you did, your analogies suck balls though.

[G-Snarls]

So anyway. Two more Blue Jays into the HOF. Love it!

[Brownie19]

Kenny Lofton will always be the player who I think got snubbed the most that I saw play in my lifetime. One and done, not even any remote consideration unlike guys like Kent.

 

David Wells the most snubbed pitcher. Yeah Brown has more Fangraphs WAR but otherwise their stats are pretty comparable and Wells has the playoff heroics to fall back on.

 

I think those three guys and Stieb will get voted in one day by the Veteran's Committee.

 

Sorry - but what stats are you looking at?

 

ERA/FIP/xFIP/WAR

 

Brown - 3.28/3.33/3.55/76.5

Wells - 4.13/3.99/4.13/58.3

 

It's too bad Loften didn't get a shot before he was 25. I think that really hurt him - as did his playoff performance.

[Virgil_Hiltz]

So anyway. Two more Blue Jays into the HOF. Love it!

 

Absolutely.....now lets get Delgado into the HoF

[wilko]

Absolutely.....now lets get Delgado into the HoF

 

What team do you think he'd go in with? Marlins?

[connorp]

What team do you think he'd go in with? Marlins?

 

Why? It was ugly when they didn’t sign him in FA? I don’t recall

[John_Havok]

Why? It was ugly when they didn’t sign him in FA? I don’t recall

 

He was joking. Delgado only played one season in Florida.

[connorp]

He was joking. Delgado only played one season in Florida.

 

Ah. I thought it was a joke about bad blood. I see

[John_Havok]

Ah. I thought it was a joke about bad blood. I see

 

Yeah Florida dumped Delgado along with Beckett and MIke Lowell all in like one week to save 30 million in payroll for the 2006 season.

[Dick_Pole]

Sorry - but what stats are you looking at?

 

ERA/FIP/xFIP/WAR

 

Brown - 3.28/3.33/3.55/76.5

Wells - 4.13/3.99/4.13/58.3

 

It's too bad Loften didn't get a shot before he was 25. I think that really hurt him - as did his playoff performance.

 

David Wells: 239-157, 2,201 K, hungover perfect game, ALCS MVP, 10-5, 3.17 ERA in playoffs

Kevin Brown: 211-144, 2,397 Ks, 5-5, 4.19 ERA in playoffs

 

If we are talking about these pitchers, they should at least both be in the conversation about equally. But when it comes to people sticking up for pitchers, Brown is always top of mind and Wells complete ignored. Why? Because Brown is one of the first players you see not in the HOF when sorting by WAR? There's more to it than that IMO.

 

10 years ago I would have said David Wells is not a Hall of Famer. But he should have at least stuck around like Kent and Vizquel. With Baines getting in which is a joke, and with McGriff getting in and no one is complaining about it (rightfully so IMO), why not Wells? He's got more WAR than McGriff does. I guess I'm playing Devil's Advocate too. If everyone was talking about Wells and not Brown, I'd be sticking up for Brown more.

[G-Snarls]

Yeah Florida dumped Delgado along with Beckett and MIke Lowell all in like one week to save 30 million in payroll for the 2006 season.

 

It's what they do!

[John_Havok]

David Wells: 239-157, 2,201 K, hungover perfect game, ALCS MVP, 10-5, 3.17 ERA in playoffs

Kevin Brown: 211-144, 2,397 Ks, 5-5, 4.19 ERA in playoffs

 

If we are talking about these pitchers, they should at least both be in the conversation about equally. But when it comes to people sticking up for pitchers, Brown is always top of mind and Wells complete ignored. Why? Because Brown is one of the first players you see not in the HOF when sorting by WAR? There's more to it than that IMO.

 

10 years ago I would have said David Wells is not a Hall of Famer. But he should have at least stuck around like Kent and Vizquel. With Baines getting in which is a joke, and with McGriff getting in and no one is complaining about it (rightfully so IMO), why not Wells? He's got more WAR than McGriff does. I guess I'm playing Devil's Advocate too. If everyone was talking about Wells and not Brown, I'd be sticking up for Brown more.

 

It's not just about WAR. WAR is something that for a HOF thing, you look at and be like "whoa, did we miss something here?" and then do a deeper dive on someone to see what's up.

 

Wells never really had a great peak during his career where he was THE guy. He did have some great seasons, but Wells was never the leader of a rotations for years on end nor was he ever truly in the conversation for Cy Young year in and year out for 5-7 seasons like you see with most dominatn pitchers. Wells had maybe 1 or 2 seasons like that. The rest were your solid #2/3 pitcher years (mostly leaning towards 2)

 

Wells and Pettitte compare relatively close to each other in that way IMO. Both enjoyed very short peaks, and a long career as a guy everyone would want in their rotation, but they weren't aces.

[Brownie19]

David Wells: 239-157, 2,201 K, hungover perfect game, ALCS MVP, 10-5, 3.17 ERA in playoffs

Kevin Brown: 211-144, 2,397 Ks, 5-5, 4.19 ERA in playoffs

 

If we are talking about these pitchers, they should at least both be in the conversation about equally. But when it comes to people sticking up for pitchers, Brown is always top of mind and Wells complete ignored. Why? Because Brown is one of the first players you see not in the HOF when sorting by WAR? There's more to it than that IMO.

 

10 years ago I would have said David Wells is not a Hall of Famer. But he should have at least stuck around like Kent and Vizquel. With Baines getting in which is a joke, and with McGriff getting in and no one is complaining about it (rightfully so IMO), why not Wells? He's got more WAR than McGriff does. I guess I'm playing Devil's Advocate too. If everyone was talking about Wells and not Brown, I'd be sticking up for Brown more.

 

Fair enough. I can appreciate that, but if you're going to use 'old school' stats like W, L, K, then you probably need to include ERA, where Brown is much better (albeit that's somewhat because he pitched in the NL half his career whereas Boomer pitched primarily in the AL East). I loved watching Boomer back in the day.

[Dick_Pole]

So anyway. Two more Blue Jays into the HOF. Love it!

 

The Jays were unquestionably the best team for a 10 year period from the early 80's to 90's. I don't know how many teams outside of the Yankees have put up 11 straight winning seasons in MLB's long history but my guess is not a lot. They've had an extreme lack of representation in the HOF. Until now it's been Alomar and a few guys with cups of coffee at the end of their career. McGriff is a good addition. Stieb would complete it.

 

I know Stieb is a tier below Brown, Wells and Pettitte career wise so it will be an uphill battle for him. But I think he had a better peak than those guys.

[Dick_Pole]

It's not just about WAR. WAR is something that for a HOF thing, you look at and be like "whoa, did we miss something here?" and then do a deeper dive on someone to see what's up.

 

Wells never really had a great peak during his career where he was THE guy. He did have some great seasons, but Wells was never the leader of a rotations for years on end nor was he ever truly in the conversation for Cy Young year in and year out for 5-7 seasons like you see with most dominatn pitchers. Wells had maybe 1 or 2 seasons like that. The rest were your solid #2/3 pitcher years (mostly leaning towards 2)

 

Wells and Pettitte compare relatively close to each other in that way IMO. Both enjoyed very short peaks, and a long career as a guy everyone would want in their rotation, but they weren't aces.

 

I can agree with this argument.

[Brownie19]

The Jays were unquestionably the best team for a 10 year period from the early 80's to 90's. I don't know how many teams outside of the Yankees have put up 11 straight winning seasons in MLB's long history but my guess is not a lot. They've had an extreme lack of representation in the HOF. Until now it's been Alomar and a few guys with cups of coffee at the end of their career. McGriff is a good addition. Stieb would complete it.

 

I know Stieb is a tier below Brown, Wells and Pettitte career wise so it will be an uphill battle for him. But I think he had a better peak than those guys.

 

Perhaps for Pettitte and Wells, but there's no way Stieb's peak was better than Brown's (1996-2000), then you sprinkle in 1992, 1993 and 2003 on top of that and it's no contest.

[John_Havok]

I can agree with this argument.

 

Brown, on the other hand, had a 9 year stretch where he was a legit ace. 55.6 WAR accumulated over that 9 year stretch (6 WAR per season) , plus another 6+ war season outside of that peak. If anything, the knock on Brown is that he was always overshadowed by guys having otherworldly seasons ahead of him. Anytime Brown had Cy votes, the winners were Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine(Brown was f***ing robbed that year), Randy Johnson, and Randy Johnson.

[Laika]

100% agree that it's not all about WAR

 

and for that reason I think Bartolo Colon needs to be in the Hall of Fame

 

the meme generation knows no more famous P

[G-Snarls]

The Jays were unquestionably the best team for a 10 year period from the early 80's to 90's. I don't know how many teams outside of the Yankees have put up 11 straight winning seasons in MLB's long history but my guess is not a lot. They've had an extreme lack of representation in the HOF. Until now it's been Alomar and a few guys with cups of coffee at the end of their career. McGriff is a good addition. Stieb would complete it.

 

I know Stieb is a tier below Brown, Wells and Pettitte career wise so it will be an uphill battle for him. But I think he had a better peak than those guys.

 

Jays teams then were loaded with "Hall of very good" players and occasional brief stints of other teams' actual HOF guys like Roger Clemens*, Frank Thomas and Paul Molitor.

 

It all leads to not many guys in Jays hats in the HOF.

 

*should be in HOF

Edited January 25, 2023 by G-Snarls

[connorp]

100% agree that it's not all about WAR

 

and for that reason I think Bartolo Colon needs to be in the Hall of Fame

 

the meme generation knows no more famous P

 

They struggle mightily with defensive metrics in 2023. Glad you Have so much confidence in the metrics from 30 years ago

[Virgil_Hiltz]

What team do you think he'd go in with? Marlins?

 

Maybe Im biased but I suspect it would be the Jays. Without looking it up he probably played here the longest by about 4 or 5 yrs.

[Virgil_Hiltz]

The Jays were unquestionably the best team for a 10 year period from the early 80's to 90's. I don't know how many teams outside of the Yankees have put up 11 straight winning seasons in MLB's long history but my guess is not a lot. They've had an extreme lack of representation in the HOF. Until now it's been Alomar and a few guys with cups of coffee at the end of their career. McGriff is a good addition. Stieb would complete it.

 

I know Stieb is a tier below Brown, Wells and Pettitte career wise so it will be an uphill battle for him. But I think he had a better peak than those guys.

 

YES to Stieb!

Honestly playing for either Boston or the Yankees is good for 60++ additional votes that other players for other teams wouldnt get!

[Laika]

still can't believe Roy Halladay's screeching widow made his HOF plaque have no logo on the cap

 

reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee