Would you fire Atkins

[WryNGinger]

Meant to vote Yes...oops

[Spanky99]

Uh, who are you?

 

It didn't happen, he must of misremembered.

[jaysblue]

The bullpen was fine, lmao.

 

They blew it of course but it was good enough.

 

Max Scherzer gave up four homers in one playoff game this year you know

 

This bullpen wasn't good enough for a deep Postseason run. Those are the facts.

[Laika]

This bullpen wasn't good enough for a deep Postseason run. Those are the facts.

 

No, those aren’t the facts

 

They had a borderline elite closer and several solid relievers behind him.

 

There is not some categorical box to tick for them to let you into the World Series where Rob Manfred checks to see if you have two closers and a lefty that throws 100

[jaysblue]

No, those aren’t the facts

 

They had a borderline elite closer and several solid relievers behind him.

 

There is not some categorical box to tick for them to let you into the World Series where Rob Manfred checks to see if you have two closers and a lefty that throws 100

 

Their bullpen was a middle of the pack bullpen. They have solid pieces sure and Romano did an awesome job this season. I know it's only one game, but they couldn't even secure an 8-1 lead from the 6th inning on in the most important game of the season. Upgrades need to be made and they need to target more high K arms.

 

You can't expect to bring back the same bullpen with no additions at all, especially after the bullpen was one of the reasons why they missed the Postseason by one game in 2021 and why they aren't playing baseball tomorrow in Houston!

[Laika]

Their bullpen was a middle of the pack bullpen. They have solid pieces sure and Romano did an awesome job this season. I know it's only one game, but they couldn't even secure an 8-1 lead from the 6th inning on. Upgrades need to be made and they need to target more high K arms.

 

You can't expect to bring back the same bullpen with no additions at all, especially after the bullpen was one of the reasons why they missed the Postseason by one game in 2021 and why they aren't playing baseball tomorrow in Houston!

 

Of course they could upgrade the pen

 

But there a bunch of stooges here acting like this was one of the worst pens in the league and they knew from March that it would sink them. That’s dumb. They made the pen way better at the deadline and it ended up decent for the playoffs. They blew chunks on Saturday but most of that was random. Mayza was great for several months then bad for one inning. Bass had an excellent season then gave up three hits in a row. That’s just randomness.

 

The Cards had one of the impressive arms in baseball as their closer and they blew it too

[bluejaysinternNo5]

The good thing about having a middle of the pack pen is that only takes one or two additions to really take it the next level. Sign some minor league flyers and send them to the pitching lab over the winter and see what you have in the spring. Indulge yourself in a solid free agent relief arm and accept that risk that comes with that. Maybe make a trade for a young guy with electric stuff that's on the 40 man crunch for some team. Add those guys to this years pen and I would feel pretty good until the deadline.

 

Side note: would anyone here give Edwin Diaz the Aroldis Chapman contract? I don't think the Jays are in a position to sign Diaz specifically since he might command 100M but I could see Atkins opening the books for a reliever worth 10 or 12 million a year for a year or two.

[connorp]

Of course they could upgrade the pen

 

But there a bunch of stooges here acting like this was one of the worst pens in the league and they knew from March that it would sink them. That’s dumb. They made the pen way better at the deadline and it ended up decent for the playoffs. They blew chunks on Saturday but most of that was random. Mayza was great for several months then bad for one inning. Bass had an excellent season then gave up three hits in a row. That’s just randomness.

 

The Cards had one of the impressive arms in baseball as their closer and they blew it too

 

Bass was a year removed from a 5 FIP and lifetime is over 4, maybe it would be more accurate to say his great season in a sss was the randomness? Douche. Make a better argument

[Laika]

Bass was a year removed from a 5 FIP and lifetime is over 4, maybe it would be more accurate to say his great season in a sss was the randomness? Douche. Make a better argument

 

He had a skill change, lol

 

It’s well documented

 

“Douche” interesting word to slip in there. You don’t like me anymore, friend?

[connorp]

There’s guys you can say “hey we did our best to put the guys in place, randomness wasn’t on our side”. Lifetime drifters in the BP doesn’t allow you to do that

[connorp]

You go out and you trade for Robertson or Iglesias, or someone proven, you can say that. If you go thrifty and try to get sneaky value on drifters and it blows up, you cheaped out.

[connorp]

He had a skill change, lol

 

It’s well documented

 

“Douche” interesting word to slip in there. You don’t like me anymore, friend?

 

I just decided to up my rhetoric as this is usually the stuff you say to me lol

Or about me

[Laika]

You go out and you trade for Robertson or Iglesias, or someone proven, you can say that. If you go thrifty and try to get sneaky value on drifters and it blows up, you cheaped out.

 

Bass is better than Robertson right now. That’s not even debatable.

 

Iglesias makes dumb money.

 

 

This is just one of those ultimate Process vs. Results situations. There’s honestly no point debating it I guess. Some people just can’t mentally separate the two things.

[jaysblue]

Of course they could upgrade the pen

 

But there a bunch of stooges here acting like this was one of the worst pens in the league and they knew from March that it would sink them. That’s dumb. They made the pen way better at the deadline and it ended up decent for the playoffs. They blew chunks on Saturday but most of that was random. Mayza was great for several months then bad for one inning. Bass had an excellent season then gave up three hits in a row. That’s just randomness.

 

The Cards had one of the impressive arms in baseball as their closer and they blew it too

 

It's not one of the worst pens in the league obviously. Though it wasn't a good enough bullpen to make a deep Postseason push. What is wrong with that criticism?

 

I'm not sure they made the pen "way better" at the deadline. I liked the acquisitions of Pop and Bass as I mentioned numerous times. Did any of them really make an impact or a difference especially in this Wildcard series?

 

I'm not blaming the entire loss from Saturday on the bullpen. It was a combination of many things, mostly Schneider's in-game managing decisions. Though part of that combination was because of their bullpen and Tapia - which we can question the front office on why these areas weren't addressed better in the offseason or at the deadline.

 

Was Tim Mayza really that good this season? 3.98 FIP and 0.1 WAR this season along with only an 8.14 K/9. I think the Jays can definitely find a better lefty this offseason.

 

Anthony Bass was really solid all year and even once he was traded to the Blue Jays. Is he the perfect guy to bridge to Romano in the 9th? Not too sure. Yes he had a bad outing and its just randomness, though you can't always use that excuse. He gave up 3 hits, and I don't recall any of them being weak groundballs or bloopers.

 

The Cards had a 2-0 lead, which is a lot easier to blow than a 8-1 lead, wouldn't you agree? As well, their bullpen got them to the 9th with a 2-0 lead and Helsley blew it. Though also there were reports his finger was still an issue. So comparing the Cards BP blowing their 2-0 lead to the Jays bullpen blowing an 8-1 lead is a weak argument.

[connorp]

Bass is better than Robertson right now. That’s not even debatable.

 

Iglesias makes dumb money.

 

 

This is just one of those ultimate Process vs. Results situations. There’s honestly no point debating it I guess. Some people just can’t mentally separate the two things.

 

Actually yes Robertson doesn’t look that great. I was going off Spanky and that was a mistake.

I’m still of them opinion that while paying “closer” money for an RP is not “smart”, it becomes necessarily at a certain level unless you have the homegrown talent where you don’t need it. Jays aren’t in that spot.

[connorp]

 

This is just one of those ultimate Process vs. Results situations. There’s honestly no point debating it I guess. Some people just can’t mentally separate the two things.

 

They shouldn’t be separated. What’s the JD quote? “It’s not a try league, it’s a get it done league” ..

 

Who cares about processes if you don’t get results. Two blown years with a championship level core

 

There’s clear and valid critiques you can make about the team building these last two seasons. The fail in the playoffs exposes the warts

[Jimcanuck]

The Jays losing to the M's is mainly 3 game randomness. They were the better team.

 

Being random means there are no conclusions to be made.

 

The f'ing Nats could beat the Dodgers in a 3 game series. It doesn't mean the Dodgers have this or that weakness.

 

No need for drastic action. Make some moves that make sense, hope randomness breaks the Jays way next season.

[connorp]

The Jays losing to the M's is mainly 3 game randomness. They were the better team.

 

Being random means there are no conclusions to be made.

 

The f'ing Nats could beat the Dodgers in a 3 game series. It doesn't mean the Dodgers have this or that weakness.

 

No need for drastic action. Make some moves that make sense, hope randomness breaks the Jays way next season.

 

Randomness is good explanation for Game 1. Doesn’t apply to Game 2 considering everything

 

Actually… I mean.. Sea goes out and acquires a CY Young type pitcher, which cuts down on randomness of Game 1 significantly. Though he could’ve randomly had a bad game like Manoah. But he didn’t. Not a try league lol

[Carlos Danger]

The bullpen was fine

 

Bad take my friend. Same sort of thing you said pre-season when you said the rotation/depth was fine.

 

Define fine I guess I would ask? No defined set up guy, one Romero injury from no closer. Guys who had a lot of bad outings with some really good ones is too inconsistent. Bass should NOT be used regularly in the 8th and def not the 9th.

 

Again, fine BP for an average team. Compared to the competition who made the playoffs a weak spot relative to matchups.

 

They were also overworked and probably burnt out. That’s what happens when you have two maybe three once Stripling started pitching, reliable starters.

 

If you have a solid pen, maybe one falters but the other guys do what they are supposed to do. We had too many games where multiple RPs s*** the bed.

 

A lot of them we were just lucky we scored 8, 9 runs etc.

[jaysblue]

The Jays losing to the M's is mainly 3 game randomness. They were the better team.

 

Being random means there are no conclusions to be made.

 

The f'ing Nats could beat the Dodgers in a 3 game series. It doesn't mean the Dodgers have this or that weakness.

 

No need for drastic action. Make some moves that make sense, hope randomness breaks the Jays way next season.

 

Jim, this team should have won Game 2 leading 8-1 and have played a Game 3 this series. No excuses.

 

I agree the Blue Jays are still a better team on paper than the Mariners, though at the end of the day the Jays didn't get the job done. The way they lost especially was embarrassing. If they won Game 2 and lost a close one in Game 3, sure it's unfortunate and yes you can use the randomness excuse.

 

Also, next time to avoid a short Wildcard series, maybe the Jays should win the division so they wouldn't be in this position. Though I guess they weren't good enough to win the AL East so you should start asking questions why they weren't...

[connorp]

It’s like a CEO founder that builds a company. Makes it successful but as it gets to next level, it stumbles. He doesn’t really get it take the next step, just makes some failed attempts that don’t work.

 

The competition got better for the playoffs, Jays didn’t

[Dagagad]

I personally believe that the key to long extended windows is your ability to develop pitching… and i think we are somewhere in the middle band of teams at that.. and thats on Atkins.. probably.

 

But, we won over 90 games two years in a row and they have done fantastic on the hitting side. So, no i wouldnt fire him. Id ask him to get better at the pitching side via hires or investment or whatever.

 

You could fire him and it could get worse. I think a better front office would extend our window out a few years more, but this FO is competing now.. so seems like a bad idea to disrupt it too much.

 

A few years ago, the yankees rejiggered their pitching set up. They didnt fire cashman. Im fine with that approach.

[Laika]

They shouldn’t be separated. What’s the JD quote? “It’s not a try league, it’s a get it done league” ..

 

Who cares about processes if you don’t get results. Two blown years with a championship level core

 

There’s clear and valid critiques you can make about the team building these last two seasons. The fail in the playoffs exposes the warts

 

The only part I will maybe agree with is the repetitive falling short might reveal something. But it has nothing to do with the bullpen or rotation depth or even the front office’s choices around the edges.

 

I am starting to legitimately wonder if the core youngsters, Bo and Vlad, have soft skill flaws that are irreparable.

[connorp]

I personally believe that the key to long extended windows is your ability to develop pitching… and i think we are somewhere in the middle band of teams at that.. and thats on Atkins.. probably.

 

But, we won over 90 games two years in a row and they have done fantastic in the postseason. So, no i wouldnt fire him. Id ask him to get better at the pitching side via hires or investment or whatever.

 

Yeah I’d probably give them one more shot to make a deeper run. Their bold move was Berrios and it was a major f*** up as of now. Maybe that made them gun shy this year.

[jaysblue]

Bad take my friend. Same sort of thing you said pre-season when you said the rotation/depth was fine.

 

Define fine I guess I would ask? No defined set up guy, one Romero injury from no closer. Guys who had a lot of bad outings with some really good ones is too inconsistent. Bass should NOT be used regularly in the 8th and def not the 9th.

 

Again, fine BP for an average team. Compared to the competition who made the playoffs a weak spot relative to matchups.

 

They were also overworked and probably burnt out. That’s what happens when you have two maybe three once Stripling started pitching, reliable starters.

 

If you have a solid pen, maybe one falters but the other guys do what they are supposed to do. We had too many games where multiple RPs s*** the bed.

 

A lot of them we were just lucky we scored 8, 9 runs etc.

 

I kind of feel the Blue Jays got extremely lucky winning the top Wildcard seed.

 

When you consider their thin rotation: imagine if Gausman or Manoah missed significant time? You could have kissed the Postseason goodbye!

 

Imagine if the Jays lost Romano and/or someone like Bass/Garcia/Cimber, this bullpen would be a complete disaster.

 

The Jays actually were lucky none of their main guys got hurt and missed significant time. But since we're talking about "randomness" we've seen injuries happen over a 162 game season. The Jays would have been caught with their pants down.

 

The bullpen was a middle of the pack pen from Day One, not a bullpen that you would feel confident with to make a deep Postseason push.

 

This front office needs to do a better job at addressing these areas during the offseason. Again, given the talented core this team already has in place, upgrading the bullpen should be icing on the cake.

[bluejaysinternNo5]

The only part I will maybe agree with is the repetitive falling short might reveal something. But it has nothing to do with the bullpen or rotation depth or even the front office’s choices around the edges.

 

I am starting to legitimately wonder if the core youngsters, Bo and Vlad, have soft skill flaws that are irreparable.

 

Soft skill flaws? Like worth ethic, or something else?

[connorp]

The only part I will maybe agree with is the repetitive falling short might reveal something. But it has nothing to do with the bullpen or rotation depth or even the front office’s choices around the edges.

 

I am starting to legitimately wonder if the core youngsters, Bo and Vlad, have soft skill flaws that are irreparable.

 

Bro, they missed out on the playoffs 2 years ago by one game. You’re telling me Brad Hand didn’t have part in maybe losing one more game than they should’ve if they got someone better? Berrios deal was horrendous this year. Do you think you slide on that because the “process was ok”. No. You better make up for that f*** up.

[Laika]

Soft skill flaws? Like worth ethic, or something else?

 

Stuff like that. Not work ethic for Bo - that’s not an issue

[Omar]

Stuff like that. Not work ethic for Bo - that’s not an issue

 

These guys are all vetted on things like Will, Skill, and Values even before they are drafted. Of course things could change but unlikely once in they are in the Org in the incubation phase of their pro career. Vladdy and Bo are solid.

 

In terms of bullpen, as I wrote in the other thread I don't think Atkins will be looking to overhaul it next year. If you look at our pen with an indifferent eye we were one solid late inning arm from success. I think Atkins will look to get that one arm wherein he can knock everyone below Romano down a slot in the pegging order. In a different reality Pearson could have been our setup guy in 2022 and this would not be a hot button topic.

[connorp]

That’s the point. Really probably one other elite arm in the BP and they’re playing for another game at least.