2021 Collective Bargaining Agreement Discussion Thread

[Brownie19]

If a salary floor goes in, there will also have to be a salary ceiling and increased revenue sharing. There pretty much has to be. That's the part that the PA doesn't want under any circumstances.

 

I mean there's already a soft ceiling in place that is generally working right?

[jerb]

 

Marly Rivera

@MarlyRiveraESPN

 

In the meeting between MLB and the MLBPA reps, which lasted an hour and a half, the tone was “the same” and there was no progress and “no breakthroughs,” sources tell ESPN. No proposals were made.

 

Marly Rivera

@MarlyRiveraESPN

 

There will be a player call this afternoon to determine the next steps.

[Abomination]

I mean there's already a soft ceiling in place that is generally working right?

 

One which the players are fighting very hard to try to effectively eliminate.

[Spanky99]

 

Marly Rivera

@MarlyRiveraESPN

 

In the meeting between MLB and the MLBPA reps, which lasted an hour and a half, the tone was “the same” and there was no progress and “no breakthroughs,” sources tell ESPN. No proposals were made.

 

Marly Rivera

@MarlyRiveraESPN

 

There will be a player call this afternoon to determine the next steps.

 

This is sad, and the owners trying to add concessions on their last offer was scummy BS, these guys are not happy. Rosenthal was on Sid and Friends yesterday and he predicts baseball's back by May 1st, and he's not sure if that date's a lock. This could get pretty ugly if they don't get back to playing by then.

[G-Snarls]

I guess there's some good arguments as to why a floor doesn't make sense if the goal is to ultimately win the World Series....but this is the PA - their goal is primarily to get more players more money. I still think a floor does that.

 

How else do you get more money in the players hands (instead of owners pocketing it from revenue sharing), how do you get more competitive balance? If Owners wanted to spend more - 90% of them could with no penalties, but they don't...and I simply don't think it can be good if teams decide before the season starts that they have no intension of trying to win that year.

 

Learn me.

 

That part is definitely true

 

A higher floor would make teams like the Orioles and Pirates pay more middle of the road veteran players to fill spots or to tender contracts to borderline arbitration eligible players, etc.

 

A higher ceiling would allow teams like the Yankees and Dodgers to pay for more higher end free agents without penalty

 

More money for players. But not sure in the best interest of the league as whole.

[G-Snarls]

That's a good question but I'm not knowledgeable enough about other sports to answer it. The concern I have is that the space between floor and ceiling will be too much. It looks like in the NBA the salary looks to be about 120 million at the low end and 180 at the high end.

 

In MLB I can see it being something like 120 at low end and 300 at high end (no hard cap).

 

If you started talking about a hard cap (or at least harsher) and some loop holes that would allow teams a better chance at keeping home grown players than I'd be more on board with the floor.

 

I am totally for more money in the hands of the players. I'd be for a floor if it is done in a system that also reduces that deviation between payrolls. Need a system that gets more money in hands of players with less variation of payrolls.

 

Hard cap will probably never happen

 

Players association certainly doesn't want that, and powerful big markets teams certainly don't want that

[Brownie19]

One which the players are fighting very hard to try to effectively eliminate.

 

I find that odd. I mean yes, eliminating it might increase the amount of money given to players, but the soft cap only limits spending by like 3-4 teams. Other teams are spending as much as they want to now, whether there's a soft cap or not.

[Brownie19]

Hard cap will probably never happen

 

Players association certainly doesn't want that, and powerful big markets teams certainly don't want that

 

How'd the end of up with hard caps in every other league? I mean certainly there were powerful big market teams in other sports that didn't want it...but it happened - which likely improved the sport overall.

[Jimcanuck]

Rather than hard floor / soft or hard cap, the floor and cap could be floating depending on player salary distribution. As the salaries change the floor and cap change. So for example if the tv deals crater in the future, salaries will begin to decrease as will the floor and cap.

 

At same time floor and cap could be soft, if a team falls below the floor or exceeds the cap, the penalty goes into the pre-arb pool. Could add some draft pick consequences for not meeting the soft floor as well.

 

Probably too complicated for the people involved but this type of approach mitigates risk for both sides.

[Spanky99]

Rather than hard floor / soft or hard cap, the floor and cap could be floating depending on player salary distribution. As the salaries change the floor and cap change. So for example if the tv deals crater in the future, salaries will begin to decrease as will the floor and cap.

 

At same time floor and cap could be soft, if a team falls below the floor or exceeds the cap, the penalty goes into the pre-arb pool. Could add some draft pick consequences for not meeting the soft floor as well.

 

Probably too complicated for the people involved but this type of approach mitigates risk for both sides.

 

I liked this post up until your narcissism got in the way, lol.

[BigCecil]

This is sad, and the owners trying to add concessions on their last offer was scummy BS, these guys are not happy. Rosenthal was on Sid and Friends yesterday and he predicts baseball's back by May 1st, and he's not sure if that date's a lock. This could get pretty ugly if they don't get back to playing by then.

 

I check the news on this at the end of every day, have a moment of deep depression, and then move on. Casual fans must be so blah to this whole thing. It just has a stench all over it.

 

The owners know once the guys making at or near league min start missing a few pay checks the pressure is going to get so intense on the players union. Still...they are really hurting their own businesses and brand. They must feel the incremental cost is worth it.

[Jimcanuck]

I liked this post up until your narcissism got in the way, lol.

 

Not narcissism, just the reality that the people MLB and MLBPA have negotiating aren't the sharpest tools in the drawer.

[John_Havok]

Not narcissism, just the reality that the people MLB and MLBPA have negotiating aren't the sharpest tools in the drawer.

 

If you think the people negotiating a CBA worth billions of dollars aren't smart as hell, you're a f***ing idiot.

[L54]

I don’t think a floor really accomplishes anything. All it does is forces teams to pay mediocre veterans more to reach a threshold. The biggest obstacle is getting more money to the guys earning less than 1M/year and not guys who have been through arb and are signing FA deals.

 

Like if Baltimore started the year with Adley, Rodriguez and Hall in the majors they would probably be a better team than signing a couple starters and a s***** catcher to cover the minimum they have to meet.

[Jimcanuck]

If you think the people negotiating a CBA worth billions of dollars aren't smart as hell, you're a f***ing idiot.

 

And the ones calling the shots? The Manfreds of the world? The one that brought in the sticky crackdown in the middle of the season?

 

I'm not convinced its sharp lawyers, and not baseball's good old boys making the decisions here, padre.

[Jimcanuck]

I don’t think a floor really accomplishes anything. All it does is forces teams to pay mediocre veterans more to reach a threshold. The biggest obstacle is getting more money to the guys earning less than 1M/year and not guys who have been through arb and are signing FA deals.

 

Like if Baltimore started the year with Adley, Rodriguez and Hall in the majors they would probably be a better team than signing a couple starters and a s***** catcher to cover the minimum they have to meet.

 

Or we see more teams signing young players to long term deals. There are different ways to do it, but the end result is more total money goes to player salaries.

[John_Havok]

And the ones calling the shots? The Manfreds of the world? The one that brought in the sticky crackdown in the middle of the season?

 

I'm not convinced its sharp lawyers, and not baseball's good old boys making the decisions here, padre.

 

Billionaires dont get to where they are in life without being some combination of smart, intelligent and ruthless, and the lawyers they hire... ditto. It's not the same kind of smarts and intelligence that us peasants would typically think of because there any many different types of intelligence, but they are not, in any way, stupid. They go to where they are precisely because they are the sharpest knives in the drawer.

 

They also generally don't give two flying f***s about anything other than money and power.

[Jimcanuck]

Billionaires dont get to where they are in life without being some combination of smart, intelligent and ruthless, and the lawyers they hire... ditto. It's not the same kind of smarts and intelligence that us peasants would typically think of because there any many different types of intelligence, but they are not, in any way, stupid. They go to where they are precisely because they are the sharpest knives in the drawer.

 

They also generally don't give two flying f***s about anything other than money and power.

 

Well let's hope that's the case. On both sides. I don't share your conviction, we've seen enough stupid decisions in baseball over the years.

[saskjayfan]

If you think the people negotiating a CBA worth billions of dollars aren't smart as hell, you're a f***ing idiot.

 

The union are extrapolating revenues when there are real issues and clear headwinds. They are fighting for more competitive imbalance. With the competitive imbalances that have existed over the last 20 years they industry has lost fans. The world series averaged 25.47 million viewers in 2003. It averaged 13.91 million viewers in 2019. That's an alarming drop. Regular season tv viewership in 2021 dropped 12% from what it was in 2019.

 

Baseball has gone from being the number 1 sport in America to being passed by the NFL and are now 3rd behind the NBA and soccer is catching up fast. Teams that never win lose fans. People get sick of the same teams winning.

 

Cable companies bundle packages and people that are really not that big of sports fans end up paying for sports channels where baseball is shown and baseball collects revenue. Streaming is a real threat and people are cancelling cable. Less subs and with less viewers that means less revenue from advertising. I feel like 5 to 10 years from now things could be dicey when TV deals come due and the revenue growth certainly won't be what it was in the past.

 

There are some terrible owners like Nutting, who is just a cheap bastard who refuses to spend when he can, but there are markets like Oakland and Tampa that have challenging local revenue propositions. Increasing the CBT too much is just a recipe for disaster as far as competition goes IMO. There are things they could consider with revenue sharing. 48% goes into a pot for local revenues and is split evenly. For the teams that receive far more than they put in, instead of splitting that money evenly give more to teams who perform better. Reward Tampa for their success. If they go an extra 20 or 30 mil from revenue sharing they could spend more on salary to keep players. For the Nuttings of the world, if you're not investing in the team and you suck you're not going to get as much revenue sharing. Invest in your team and the other 52% of your local revenues will increase and so with the revenue sharing money you receive because you performed better on the field.

 

The Yankees, Dodgers, Sox and Mets said yes to the players weeks ago. They aren't holding out. It's the small market teams that aren't going to give up competitive balance and hand advantages to franchises they already can't compete with. The season will be lost if the players don't give up the CBT fight. They got massive increases in player minimums, a new bonus pool and they got rid of draft pick compensation. You're not going to get everything done in one deal.

[Spanky99]

Not narcissism, just the reality that the people MLB and MLBPA have negotiating aren't the sharpest tools in the drawer.

 

lol... Jim so sMaRt. Narcissism bro, you're a classic!

[Spanky99]

And the ones calling the shots? The Manfreds of the world? The one that brought in the sticky crackdown in the middle of the season?

 

I'm not convinced its sharp lawyers, and not baseball's good old boys making the decisions here, padre.

 

That's different, so why has all the negotiations been done by the lawyers? The MLB and MLBPA have the final say, but they're being advised by smart lawyers, not the Jim's of the world.

[John_Havok]

The union are extrapolating revenues when there are real issues and clear headwinds. They are fighting for more competitive imbalance. With the competitive imbalances that have existed over the last 20 years they industry has lost fans. The world series averaged 25.47 million viewers in 2003. It averaged 13.91 million viewers in 2019. That's an alarming drop. Regular season tv viewership in 2021 dropped 12% from what it was in 2019.

 

Baseball has gone from being the number 1 sport in America to being passed by the NFL and are now 3rd behind the NBA and soccer is catching up fast. Teams that never win lose fans. People get sick of the same teams winning.

 

Cable companies bundle packages and people that are really not that big of sports fans end up paying for sports channels where baseball is shown and baseball collects revenue. Streaming is a real threat and people are cancelling cable. Less subs and with less viewers that means less revenue from advertising. I feel like 5 to 10 years from now things could be dicey when TV deals come due and the revenue growth certainly won't be what it was in the past.

 

There are some terrible owners like Nutting, who is just a cheap bastard who refuses to spend when he can, but there are markets like Oakland and Tampa that have challenging local revenue propositions. Increasing the CBT too much is just a recipe for disaster as far as competition goes IMO. There are things they could consider with revenue sharing. 48% goes into a pot for local revenues and is split evenly. For the teams that receive far more than they put in, instead of splitting that money evenly give more to teams who perform better. Reward Tampa for their success. If they go an extra 20 or 30 mil from revenue sharing they could spend more on salary to keep players. For the Nuttings of the world, if you're not investing in the team and you suck you're not going to get as much revenue sharing. Invest in your team and the other 52% of your local revenues will increase and so with the revenue sharing money you receive because you performed better on the field.

 

The Yankees, Dodgers, Sox and Mets said yes to the players weeks ago. They aren't holding out. It's the small market teams that aren't going to give up competitive balance and hand advantages to franchises they already can't compete with. The season will be lost if the players don't give up the CBT fight. They got massive increases in player minimums, a new bonus pool and they got rid of draft pick compensation. You're not going to get everything done in one deal.

 

I dont disagree with anything you said really, though there's some nuance to the TV viewership thing. Yeah it's down, but im sure youd see that streaming is up, because it's increasing in every major sport, and MLB still gets it's cut on streaming. Yes, local TV deals will likely not be the cash cow that it is today, but that revenue can, and will be made up by streaming royalties, ads on player patches, and dozens of other avenues the owners will be able to cook up.

 

I agree 100% that it is the small market owners that are holding this up. The big market guys are losing out on way more money than the smaller markets with games being cancelled in April. The big market guys dont give two shits if the CBT goes up to 225 or 230. Even the Padres went over the threshold last year. Other teams that have come close and gone over sometime like the Cubs, Phillies, Giants... they could go over easily if they felt they have a good window of competition for a title.

 

The CBT is a nice headline story but it's not the whole story. If the owners actually put some teeth into the revenue sharing process to "force" teams that get massive amounts of revenue sharing to use some portion of it on players, im sure some smaller market teams would get into longer competitive windows. I truly think that most small market owners want to spend more money and win, but have been boxed into these corners where it doesnt really matter if they win or not... they're revenues are going to be what they are, so why bother spending it on players if it doesnt translate to higher revenues for the team (see Tampa). They're gonna get their chunk of revenue sharing and be done with it. Yeah they might scout well, develop well and pick up a few star players along the way, but there's no way they can afford to keep them all long term (see Cleveland/Tampa/Oakland). Some are just greedy ****s (see Florida) or completely inept (see Pittsburgh).

 

I dont think a salary floor even fixes these problems necessarily, but if the owners want a real hard cap like they always say they want, they will never get it without a hard floor. Honestly, I think the NHL system is the best way of the 4 big sports as all revenues are split 50/50 and the floor/cap moves as revenues increase. If something unforseen like COVID happens, both sides got together and quickly hammered out a compromise that acknowledges reality and didnt try to f*** the other side in the ass.

[Jimcanuck]

That's different, so why has all the negotiations been done by the lawyers? The MLB and MLBPA have the final say, but they're being advised by smart lawyers, not the Jim's of the world.

 

They can't afford me anyway.

[saskjayfan]

They can't afford me anyway.

 

If you and Spanky ever want to get drunk and argue about baseball on a youtube live thing, I might pay to watch that!

[connorp]

If you and Spanky ever want to get drunk and argue about baseball on a youtube live thing, I might pay to watch that!

 

I already have dibs on Spanky for my forthcoming “Gimpy and the Brain” podcast

[Abomination]

I already have dibs on Spanky for my forthcoming “Gimpy and the Brain” podcast

 

Are you implying that Spanky is trying to take over the world?

[Ehjays]

https://www.sportsnet.ca/article/blue-jays-bo-bichette-says-fans-deserve-an-apology-for-work-stoppage/

 

Blue Jays’ Bo Bichette says fans deserve an apology for work stoppage

 

 

 

Toronto Blue Jays All-Star shortstop Bo Bichette says the entire baseball industry owes fans an apology for the current labour woes.

 

“I think the bottom line is as players we need owners and owners need players. But we both need fans,” Bichette said on The FAN Drive Time on Thursday night. “That’s the most disappointing part of it all.

 

“I think we owe an apology to people who are wanting to watch our game. But I think as a union, we have to do what’s right for ourselves this moment.”

 

Major League Baseball cancelled the first two series of the season earlier this week after owners and players could not come to a deal on a new collective bargaining agreement to end the lockout.

 

The top negotiators for both sides met informally on Thursday.

 

When asked if he could believe it’s come to this stage, Bichette said, “I can’t. I really can’t.

 

“It’s disappointing, it’s frustrating. But it is what it is. It’s just disappointing with the talent that’s in the game right now that fans are getting deprived of that. The hope is we get on the field as soon as we can.”

 

Bichette said he’s been working on staying ready at home near Clearwater, Fla., and has seen several teammates in the off-season, including Teoscar Hernandez, Reese McGuire, Jordan Romano and Danny Jansen. He added he might be heading to Miami soon to visit with Santiago Espinal, Lourdes Gurriel Jr., and Alek Manoah.

 

“That is definitely one of the things we all miss is being around each other and continuing to build the chemistry and continuing to fight for our ultimate goal,” Bichette said.

 

Bichette said he also spent time in Texas with former star shortstop Troy Tulowitzki, who helped the Blue Jays end their playoff drought in 2015, to get some pointers.

 

“Anybody that knows Tulo, he’s probably the best prepared defender to walk the earth maybe,” Bichette said. “So just to go learn from him, learn how to prepare, learn how to know I’m ready, that’s been big for me.”

 

Bichette said it’s incumbent on players and owners to form a partnership to allow baseball to make progress.

 

“As players and owners, we need to start working together if we’re going to grow the game,” he said. “We’re in a spot where baseball’s probably not what it used to be. But I think we have so many exciting players, we can gain some traction back. I think that starts with the leadership. Hopefully we can get that done here.”

[Spanky99]

They can't afford me anyway.

 

lol...

[Spanky99]

I dont disagree with anything you said really, though there's some nuance to the TV viewership thing. Yeah it's down, but im sure youd see that streaming is up, because it's increasing in every major sport, and MLB still gets it's cut on streaming. Yes, local TV deals will likely not be the cash cow that it is today, but that revenue can, and will be made up by streaming royalties, ads on player patches, and dozens of other avenues the owners will be able to cook up.

 

I agree 100% that it is the small market owners that are holding this up. The big market guys are losing out on way more money than the smaller markets with games being cancelled in April. The big market guys dont give two shits if the CBT goes up to 225 or 230. Even the Padres went over the threshold last year. Other teams that have come close and gone over sometime like the Cubs, Phillies, Giants... they could go over easily if they felt they have a good window of competition for a title.

 

The CBT is a nice headline story but it's not the whole story. If the owners actually put some teeth into the revenue sharing process to "force" teams that get massive amounts of revenue sharing to use some portion of it on players, im sure some smaller market teams would get into longer competitive windows. I truly think that most small market owners want to spend more money and win, but have been boxed into these corners where it doesnt really matter if they win or not... they're revenues are going to be what they are, so why bother spending it on players if it doesnt translate to higher revenues for the team (see Tampa). They're gonna get their chunk of revenue sharing and be done with it. Yeah they might scout well, develop well and pick up a few star players along the way, but there's no way they can afford to keep them all long term (see Cleveland/Tampa/Oakland). Some are just greedy ****s (see Florida) or completely inept (see Pittsburgh).

 

I dont think a salary floor even fixes these problems necessarily, but if the owners want a real hard cap like they always say they want, they will never get it without a hard floor. Honestly, I think the NHL system is the best way of the 4 big sports as all revenues are split 50/50 and the floor/cap moves as revenues increase. If something unforseen like COVID happens, both sides got together and quickly hammered out a compromise that acknowledges reality and didnt try to f*** the other side in the ass.

 

Agreed with this for the most part, why you keep slagging the Pirates, it's their POS owner is the problem, the Pirates have purged a lot of our FO from us. It's f***ing Nutting driving them to mediocrity, that dude needs to go? I'm hoping Cuban buys the team, he's tried several times.

[connorp]

Jesus…Tulo is the best prepared defender to walk the earth..could’ve been a little lighter with that