Jays acquire Corey Dickerson and Adam Cimber

[Krylian]

Not sure Panik is worth that much soda

 

Fresca

[Grant77]

Who was the last submarine pitcher on the Jays? It's been a long time unless you include sidearm Joe Smith.

[Krylian]

Who was the last submarine pitcher on the Jays? It's been a long time unless you include sidearm Joe Smith.

 

Mark Eichhorn

Edited June 30, 2021 by Krylian

[Scion]

According to what? He's been worth -0.1 WAR whereas Payamps 0.9 WAR.

 

Payamps has been worth 0.1 fWAR and both Zips and Steamer project him to be replacement level the rest of the way. Dolis has been similarly useless thus far, and his projections also suck but I will bet on the guy that misses bats. Nothing in Payamps peripherals suggest what he is doing is sustainable.

[Ryu In My House]

So there's an Indians fan on r/baseball that commented on this trade saying that Cimber was his favorite player in the MLB. I thought he was joking (as did everyone else) but he later elaborated down in the comments and it's actually kind of adorable.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is awesome. Love it so much.

[Ryu In My House]

Mark Eicchorn

 

And he was really good for 2+ seasons. But we also had a lefty about ten years later...who had a great 1.5 seasons. What the hell was his name??? He was short and had a slightly higher slot...

[Krylian]

And he was really good for 2+ seasons. But we also had a lefty about ten years later...who had a great 1.5 seasons. What the hell was his name??? He was short and had a slightly higher slot...

 

Aaron Loup?

[43211234]

And he was really good for 2+ seasons. But we also had a lefty about ten years later...who had a great 1.5 seasons. What the hell was his name??? He was short and had a slightly higher slot...

 

Scott Downs?

 

Actually his arm angle was much higher so probably not.

[max silver]

Payamps has been worth 0.1 fWAR and both Zips and Steamer project him to be replacement level the rest of the way. Dolis has been similarly useless thus far, and his projections also suck but I will bet on the guy that misses bats. Nothing in Payamps peripherals suggest what he is doing is sustainable.

 

Payamps has been the least of the Jays worries out of the bullpen this season. He's been pretty damn solid for the most part, he doesn't rack up a lot of k's but he induces a ton of soft contact. He's in the upper echelon for most batted ball metrics, and his xERA of 2.56 is actually better than his actual ERA of 2.70. He's been really locked in when healthy in the month of June, producing a 1.97 FIP with a sizeable uptick in strikeouts. He's not back of the bullpen material, but as a lower leverage reliever who can keep a game close when the starter gets knocked out early he's a valuable guy to have available.

[Scion]

Payamps has been the least of the Jays worries out of the bullpen this season. He's been pretty damn solid for the most part, he doesn't rack up a lot of k's but he induces a ton of soft contact. He's in the upper echelon for most batted ball metrics, and his xERA of 2.56 is actually better than his actual ERA of 2.70. He's been really locked in when healthy in the month of June, producing a 1.97 FIP with a sizeable uptick in strikeouts. He's not back of the bullpen material, but as a lower leverage reliever who can keep a game close when the starter gets knocked out early he's a valuable guy to have available.

 

And his xFIP of 5 details why that is unlikely to continue at his current pace. A 6.60 K/9 and 3.30 BB/9 just isn't very good, though to be fair ZiPS thinks both will improve moving forward. Anyways, I'm not disagreeing that he can be a back end bull-pen piece, almost anyone can. I'm just not rostering him ahead of Dolis who has shown the ability to perform in a high leverage role last year.

[intentional wok]

It's cool they got Dickerson too. There's a decent chance by the time he comes back (weeks? a month?) someone will be sidelined with something, so Dickerson slots right in. At worst, he's a fifth OF and then rosters expand in Sept.

[Krylian]

Payamps has been the least of the Jays worries out of the bullpen this season. He's been pretty damn solid for the most part, he doesn't rack up a lot of k's but he induces a ton of soft contact. He's in the upper echelon for most batted ball metrics, and his xERA of 2.56 is actually better than his actual ERA of 2.70. He's been really locked in when healthy in the month of June, producing a 1.97 FIP with a sizeable uptick in strikeouts. He's not back of the bullpen material, but as a lower leverage reliever who can keep a game close when the starter gets knocked out early he's a valuable guy to have available.

 

Payamps doesn't have the sexy factor

[Spanky99]

It's cool they got Dickerson too. There's a decent chance by the time he comes back (weeks? a month?) someone will be sidelined with something, so Dickerson slots right in. At worst, he's a fifth OF and then rosters expand in Sept.

 

Very good trade.

[max silver]

And his xFIP of 5 details why that is unlikely to continue at his current pace. A 6.60 K/9 and 3.30 BB/9 just isn't very good, though to be fair ZiPS thinks both will improve moving forward. Anyways, I'm not disagreeing that he can be a back end bull-pen piece, almost anyone can. I'm just not rostering him ahead of Dolis who has shown the ability to perform in a high leverage role last year.

 

I don't really see how xFIP is terribly useful on it's own as an evaluation tool. For what it's worth Payamps has produced very similar results to Adam Cimber, who also shows an xFIP of nearly 5 as well. These are both guys who have induced soft contact in order to shut down the opposition instead of relying on strikeouts, but with Payamps he has a chance to produce more strikeouts as he has pretty decent stuff. Tonight's game showed nicely the value of having capable pitchers at the back end of a bullpen. Let's say Payamps is available instead of Thornton and shuts down the Mariners, instead of serving up the typical Thornton meatball. It very well could have been a different result. This year's version of Dolis has been an absolute disaster, I just don't see how he can be counted on as any kind of reliable option in high leverage situations. Perhaps the multitude of injuries have prevented him from getting locked in at all, but walking over 7/9 innings isn't exactly a recipe for success.

Edited July 1, 2021 by max silver

[Grant77]

Cimber looked great tonight. It's fortunate that we had a fresh veteran reliever to pitch in extra innings instead of a struggling rookie.

[Stangstag]

Cimber looked great tonight. It's fortunate that we had a fresh veteran reliever to pitch in extra innings instead of a struggling rookie.

 

Damn im upset I missed his Jays debut

[Spanky99]

I don't really see how xFIP is terribly useful on it's own as an evaluation tool. For what it's worth Payamps has produced very similar results to Adam Cimber, who also shows an xFIP of nearly 5 as well. These are both guys who have induced soft contact in order to shut down the opposition instead of relying on strikeouts, but with Payamps he has a chance to produce more strikeouts as he has pretty decent stuff. Tonight's game showed nicely the value of having capable pitchers at the back end of a bullpen. Let's say Payamps is available instead of Thornton and shuts down the Mariners, instead of serving up the typical Thornton meatball. It very well could have been a different result. This year's version of Dolis has been an absolute disaster, I just don't see how he can be counted on as any kind of reliable option in high leverage situations. Perhaps the multitude of injuries have prevented him from getting locked in at all, but walking over 7/9 innings isn't exactly a recipe for success.

 

RA9 and SIERA best tools for RP, imo. Payamps has been better than Thornton.

Edited July 1, 2021 by Spanky99

[Spanky99]

Damn im upset I missed his Jays debut

 

He didn't pitch. bro

[Grant77]

He didn't pitch. bro

 

It was just a joke at our idiot manager's expense

[Spanky99]

It was just a joke at our idiot manager's expense

 

I know, lol.

[keggy]

And his xFIP of 5 details why that is unlikely to continue at his current pace. A 6.60 K/9 and 3.30 BB/9 just isn't very good, though to be fair ZiPS thinks both will improve moving forward. Anyways, I'm not disagreeing that he can be a back end bull-pen piece, almost anyone can. I'm just not rostering him ahead of Dolis who has shown the ability to perform in a high leverage role last year.

 

I wouldn't necessarily trust xFIP for such an unconventional pitcher. He might induce different quality of contact.

[Scion]

I wouldn't necessarily trust xFIP for such an unconventional pitcher. He might induce different quality of contact.

 

That is possible, but I would have to see evidence of that over a larger sample size before I came to the conclusion that Payamps can reliably induce weaker contact.

[Scion]

That is a fair point.

[keggy]

That is possible, but I would have to see evidence of that over a larger sample size before I came to the conclusion that Payamps can reliably induce weaker contact.

 

Didn't realize you were talking about Payamps and not Cimber. I was thinking Cimber who also has a bad xFIP. My bad.