Around Baseball 2021

[Spanky__99]

 

Who saw that coming?

[Brownie19]

 

Who you guys voting for if you had a vote?

 

I'm going with:

 

Bonds

Clemens

A.Jones

Ortiz

Pettitte

Manny

A-Rod

Rolen

Schilling

Sheffield

Wagner

 

f*** it, I get 11 votes.

[Spanky__99]

Who you guys voting for if you had a vote?

 

I'm going with:

 

Bonds

Clemens

A.Jones

Ortiz

Pettitte

Manny

A-Rod

Rolen

Schilling

Sheffield

Wagner

 

f*** it, I get 11 votes.

 

Something very similar, I think I'd drop Pettitte off that listing and be happy.

[Grant77]

Who you guys voting for if you had a vote?

 

I'm going with:

 

Bonds

Clemens

A.Jones

Ortiz

Pettitte

Manny

A-Rod

Rolen

Schilling

Sheffield

Wagner

 

f*** it, I get 11 votes.

 

Bonds

Clemens

Rodriguez

Rolen

Kent

 

Some guys like Jones, Ramirez, and Pettitte I would consider later in their candidacy. The others just weren't good enough in my opinion. I wouldn't vote them in just because stupid voters elected Harold Baines.

 

Jeff Kent laps the field when it comes to power from the second base position. He was so good that he created new expectations from that position. This isn't a personality contest for me (except Schilling, he can go f*** himself). Kent's credentials are clearly Hall of Fame worthy.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Grant77

[Spanky__99]

Bonds

Clemens

Rodriguez

Rolen

Kent

 

Some guys like Jones, Ramirez, and Pettitte I would consider later in their candidacy. The others just weren't good enough in my opinion. I wouldn't vote them in just because stupid voters elected Harold Baines.

 

Jeff Kent laps the field when it comes to power from the second base position. He was so good that he created new expectations from that position. This isn't a personality contest for me (except Schilling, he can go f*** himself). Kent's credentials are clearly Hall of Fame worthy.

 

I agree Kent is a good candidate, but what has Schilling done beside being a far right lunatic? IIRC?

[Grant77]

I agree Kent is a good candidate, but what has Schilling done beside being a far right lunatic? IIRC?

 

He was an awful teammate by all accounts, trashed his managers in front of the media to make himself look good, probably faked the 'bloody sock' incident, among many other things. I don't even care much about his politics, I just really don't like people like that. He's a total scum bag. If he gets in then that's ok and his stats merit strong consideration, but I wouldn't vote for him.

[Deadpool]

He was an awful teammate by all accounts, trashed his managers in front of the media to make himself look good, probably faked the 'bloody sock' incident, among many other things. I don't even care much about his politics, I just really don't like people like that. He's a total scum bag. If he gets in then that's ok and his stats merit strong consideration, but I wouldn't vote for him.

 

He also defrauded the state of New Hampshire out of $75M. https://www.pressherald.com/2012/11/01/rhode-island-sues-schilling-charging-fraud/

 

Apparently the game they released is pretty good, I have it, but I also have 800 other unplayed games on my Steam account...

[Laika]

None of that matters though.

 

Are we using Morals Below Replacement or something? How do we quantify an acceptable moral standard?

 

Just put in the best baseball players. Seems easy to me.

 

what about the hall of fame candidate who murdered someone

or committed horrible DV

 

still easy?

[wamco]

Schilling rolen Kent

[The Cats Ass]

I wanna know what is going through people's minds when they vote for Ortiz and Sheffield, but leave Bonds, Clemens, and A-Rod off the ballot. PED use is fine for some players but not okay for others?

 

[Brownie19]

He was an awful teammate by all accounts, trashed his managers in front of the media to make himself look good, probably faked the 'bloody sock' incident, among many other things. I don't even care much about his politics, I just really don't like people like that. He's a total scum bag. If he gets in then that's ok and his stats merit strong consideration, but I wouldn't vote for him.

 

Really?

[Brownie19]

Jeff Kent laps the field when it comes to power from the second base position. He was so good that he created new expectations from that position. This isn't a personality contest for me (except Schilling, he can go f*** himself). Kent's credentials are clearly Hall of Fame worthy.

 

Are you putting Cano in the HOF? His career is almost identical to Jeff Kent (Kent has a few more counting stats). By most accounts Bobby Grich and Utley were better 2nd basemen.

 

I'm also curious why people are against Pettitte. 33rd all time career WAR for pitchers, ahead of Doc, Glavine, Feller, Marichal, Palmer, etc. He also has a pretty impressive playoff record on top of all that. Schilling is 20th all time - I don't care if he's a POS or not, the guy was a f***ing stud and workhorse on the diamond.

[Brownie19]

I wanna know what is going through people's minds when they vote for Ortiz and Sheffield, but leave Bonds, Clemens, and A-Rod off the ballot. PED use is fine for some players but not okay for others?

 

I honestly don't think you do. It might be disturbing. He voted for Jimmy Rollins FFS. The guy is a clown.

[FantasyNewb]

Are you putting Cano in the HOF? His career is almost identical to Jeff Kent (Kent has a few more counting stats). By most accounts Bobby Grich and Utley were better 2nd basemen.

 

I'm also curious why people are against Pettitte. 33rd all time career WAR for pitchers, ahead of Doc, Glavine, Feller, Marichal, Palmer, etc. He also has a pretty impressive playoff record on top of all that. Schilling is 20th all time - I don't care if he's a POS or not, the guy was a f***ing stud and workhorse on the diamond.

 

Shilling absolutely deserves to be in.

[wilko]

Bonds

Clemens

Helton

Ortiz

Ramirez

Rodriguez

Rolen

Schilling

Sosa

[Jimcanuck]

Voting is not supposed to be based solely on the player's record though. From the HOF website:

 

5. Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.

 

While the player's record and ability can be reasonably objectively assessed, the rest of it is rather subjective and there is no suggestion as to how these are to be weighted. Maybe some voters weigh everything equally, so they vote for a player with worse stats over a player with better.

 

Maybe the writer voted for the well liked Big Papi over the less liked Clemens and Bonds for this reason. Who the f*** knows. It's rather stupid. The player's record should be weighted like 75%, minimum.

 

Interesting that both player's record and playing ability, which might seem redundant, are mentioned.

[Spanky__99]

captainobvious.gif

[wamco]

Are you putting Cano in the HOF? His career is almost identical to Jeff Kent (Kent has a few more counting stats). By most accounts Bobby Grich and Utley were better 2nd basemen.

 

I'm also curious why people are against Pettitte. 33rd all time career WAR for pitchers, ahead of Doc, Glavine, Feller, Marichal, Palmer, etc. He also has a pretty impressive playoff record on top of all that. Schilling is 20th all time - I don't care if he's a POS or not, the guy was a f***ing stud and workhorse on the diamond.

 

I’m gonna take a wild guess and say it was the PED bust

[TheHurl]

I wanna know what is going through people's minds when they vote for Ortiz and Sheffield, but leave Bonds, Clemens, and A-Rod off the ballot. PED use is fine for some players but not okay for others?

 

Then writes an article behind a paywall to defend it by pretty much saying Ortiz and Sheffield didn't hurt the game

[connorp]

Then writes an article behind a paywall to defend it by pretty much saying Ortiz and Sheffield didn't hurt the game

 

At least he explained it though. I’m not saying I agree…of course it circles back imo, but still good to at least understand his thinking.

[TheHurl]

At least he explained it though. I’m not saying I agree…of course it circles back imo, but still good to at least understand his thinking.

 

I can respect those that face the public and explain themselves. However he put it on his socials and then puts the response behind a paywall, never replying after.

 

I must say that in this era where clicks and views are $$$...it is beneficial for these writers to have a controversial ballot.

 

The MLB should monetize the ballot process. Have each voter on the MLB network to reveal their list and then face questions from the fans and media.

[Grant77]

Are you putting Cano in the HOF? His career is almost identical to Jeff Kent (Kent has a few more counting stats). By most accounts Bobby Grich and Utley were better 2nd basemen.

 

I'm also curious why people are against Pettitte. 33rd all time career WAR for pitchers, ahead of Doc, Glavine, Feller, Marichal, Palmer, etc. He also has a pretty impressive playoff record on top of all that. Schilling is 20th all time - I don't care if he's a POS or not, the guy was a f***ing stud and workhorse on the diamond.

 

Cano is someone I would take a long look at, although I do consider PED use when it comes to borderline candidates. That's particularly harmful for guys like Cano, Ortiz, Ramirez, and Pettitte that are certainly not slam dunks even if they had a clean history. It's too easy to just ignore character and off the field actions entirely. This is a more complex decision than people make it out to be.

 

Bobby Grich just deserves to be in, period.

[Boxcar]

Then writes an article behind a paywall to defend it by pretty much saying Ortiz and Sheffield didn't hurt the game

 

How did Clemens and Bonds hurt it? Because they were too good?

[Dick_Pole]

I guess these HOF votes need to go to mandatory anonymity. You lose your right to vote if you purposely make your choices public. These writers - since they know there are no actual negative consequences for their actions - are using these ballots as an opportunity to virtue signal or attention whore. No one in their right mind TRULY believes that Bonds doesn't merit being in the HOF. Or if he does, send in a blank ballot because no one else does.

[connorp]

How did Clemens and Bonds hurt it? Because they were too good?

 

Essentially, yeah. Big Mac, Sosa, Bonds making baseball headlines that were all a sham. Clemens as well. Or so the thinking would go. Not saying I agree with it

[Dick_Pole]

I can respect those that face the public and explain themselves. However he put it on his socials and then puts the response behind a paywall, never replying after.

 

I must say that in this era where clicks and views are $$$...it is beneficial for these writers to have a controversial ballot.

 

The MLB should monetize the ballot process. Have each voter on the MLB network to reveal their list and then face questions from the fans and media.

 

Funny that we have the identical thought process but polar opposite conclusions. Since these guys don't face any negative consequences for this, monetizing it either unofficially like this douchebag is doing or officially through the MLB is only going to increase stupid and/or controversial selections because they will be the ones facing the biggest questions. The BBWAA member who votes the top 10 players by WAR will get no spotlight because his thought process makes perfect and obvious sense.

[John_Havok]

How did Clemens and Bonds hurt it? Because they were too good?

 

No s***, if anything they saved baseball and gave it some attention again. Baseball started being relevant again, all those sanctimonious writers that were all worried about their baseball writing futures jobs were saved... if anything every writer with a HOF vote should be thanking those guys for keeping them employed.

 

Except Murray Chass, he just needs to stop and gracefully exit the whole process before he makes a bigger joke of himself and his ballots.

[Jimcanuck]

Funny that we have the identical thought process but polar opposite conclusions. Since these guys don't face any negative consequences for this, monetizing it either unofficially like this douchebag is doing or officially through the MLB is only going to increase stupid and/or controversial selections because they will be the ones facing the biggest questions. The BBWAA member who votes the top 10 players by WAR will get no spotlight because his thought process makes perfect and obvious sense.

 

Except the HOF mentions consideration of other criteria. Who would you put first on your ballot, Alex Rodriguez (113.7 WAR) or Cal Ripken Jr. (92.5 WAR)? Me, I check off Ripken before A-Rod, easy.

[Jimcanuck]

Jim's 2021 HOF ballot:

 

1. Barry Bonds

2. Roger Clemens

3. Scott Rolen

4. Alex Rodriguez

5. Sammy Sosa

6. Bobby Abreu

7. Andruw Jones

8. Curt Schilling

9. Todd Helton

10. Manny Ramirez

[John_Havok]

Mine that isn't finalized yet...

 

Bonds

A-Rod

Manny

Rolen

Schilling

Sheffield

Sosa

Jones

Clemens

Wagner

Ortiz

 

 

Still waffling on Kent and Petitte. I'm leaning towards yes on Kent, and no on Pettite, but I'm still working through the numbers.