Luhnow and Hinch Suspensions

[Deadpool]

Because every team had players on Roids...this is not the same, it's not that hard bro. Players are mad because what the stros did crossed a line, and they and they alone went as far as they did. If everyone was doing it players would not be speaking out like they are.

 

They alone got caught. There's enough rumour and hearsay (which are KINDS of evidence) that it's not just them.

[Spanky99]

He's not wrong.

 

Have you seen Correa's response to Bellinger in his interview with Rosenthal, fun watch, lol.

 

[max silver]

How do you guys feel about categorizing cheating?

 

Do you believe that all cheating is cheating and it should be punished similarly?

 

Do you believe we should 'rank' cheating into different levels and penalize them differently? If so - how do you decide those levels?

 

 

 

I mean it's universally known that almost every pitcher in baseball is using a foreign substance to gain grip. That's cheating. Is it 'OK' because everyone is doing it? Why isn't the baseball world losing their minds over it? Is it because they assume it doesn't have a major impact on outcome of the game? I mean in this new world of spin rates and strikeouts - why isn't there more focus on this?

 

Do we know whether it gives some pitchers more advantage than it does other pitchers? Do we know if some teams have a better 'product' than others? Do we know when pitchers started using it? Was it one (or a handful) of teams using it originally and did they have an advantage over the rest of the league for a year or two?

 

I find it fascinating that fans are losing their minds over the Astros. Change the record books, life suspensions, etc...when there's probably all kinds of cheating going on in baseball. It's fascinating that players will speak out against the Astros - yet I don't remember Bellinger (or other players) speaking out against other players and even his own teammates who were using PEDs and cheating. Why not? Why isn't there talk of throwing at players coming back from PED suspensions?

 

discuss.

 

I would hope you are able to distinguish the severity of cheating in an organization that cooked up a multi-tier technologically advanced cheating method involving everyone from the front office to the bench coach right down to the players, something on the level which baseball has never seen, vs an individual pitcher using something to enhance their grip. Systemic cheating vs. micro level individual small scale cheating don't really warrant the same kind of discussion, nor should they.

[Spanky99]

Why don't players speak out against PED users and pitchers using foreign substances? Is it simply because half their teammates are also cheating? Or did they decide that cheating isn't 'as bad'?

 

Because PED's, grip substances, and in game sign stealing has been around for 50+ years, using real time video technology is absurd, as players have said, "would be nice to know what's coming" it's on an entirely different level, Brownie. They see it as those players getting off scot-free, and I agree with them.

 

Seriously, f*** the Stro's and possibly Red Sox players that were involved in live video cheating, and Manfred's a f***ing moron to boot, f*** that guy.

[Spanky99]

Damn I didn't realize Manfred referred to the World Series trophy as a "piece of metal". No wonder the players are lashing out at him. What a tone deaf thing to say about what should symbolize the biggest prize in your own sport. No wonder the marketing under his watch is so bad.

 

I hope this Astros thing pisses off the owners too. I don't think it will unless the league starts losing money, but dammit I'm fully on board with Manfred getting the F out of this sport.

 

Yeah, he's a f***ing retard. "piece of metal" lol.

[TheHurl]

#1 Rob Manfred fanboy right here. He'll drive baseball into the dirt and Hurl will still be waving his pom poms.

 

The one thing I like about Manfred is that he says baseball is heading into the dirt. If he doesn't prevent a work stoppage he's done. If he keeps giving interviews he might not last that long.

[Beans]

Have you seen Correa's response to Bellinger in his interview with Rosenthal, fun watch, lol.

 

 

"If you don't know the facts, then you got to shut the f*** up!"

[TheHurl]

Because PED's, grip substances, and in game sign stealing has been around for 50+ years, using real time video technology is absurd, as players have said, "would be nice to know what's coming" it's on an entirely different level, Brownie. They see it as those players getting off scot-free, and I agree with them.

 

Seriously, f*** the Stro's and possibly Red Sox players that were involved in live video cheating, and Manfred's a f***ing moron to boot, f*** that guy.

 

Yet everyone knew they were doing it for 2 years and didn't say a thing. I don't disagree that using electronics is wrong and the team should get punished (although being better at stealing signs is an odd punishment). There should have been multiple draft picks removed. Who do you punish for players? Hitters that are on other teams now? Pitchers? Everyone who was on the team but financially only?

 

Because MLB f***ed up the first investigation they likely would lose anything that got into legal issues. Like I said MLB f***ed this up badly from a PR side, they had to know that the fans and media would over-react. I hate sloppy PR and they are guilty of that. Even now they have never said "Anyone caught doing anything like this moving forward will be given the death penalty". It's probably because they know baseball will try and cheat again.

[glory]

The one thing I like about Manfred is that he says baseball is heading into the dirt. If he doesn't prevent a work stoppage he's done. If he keeps giving interviews he might not last that long.

 

Milb hates him, MLBPA hates him, the fans hate him, and now he’s routinely called out by players. Attendance is dropping and I believe some important TV deals have to be renewed soon. He should be on thin ice. MLB is a $10B industry despite arguably the worst marketing of any sports org in the country. Imagine if they actually put money into marketing? I’m not sure Manfred lasts even if he prevents a work stoppage. By the time the CBA expires he will be 63. He’s already out of touch with what society wants, it’s not going to get any better with age.

[Spanky99]

MLB STARS HAMMER MANFRED OVER 'PIECE OF METAL' TROPHY CRACK

 

Feb 18, 2020 , By HOWARD FENDRICH

 

WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. (AP) Players who have won a World Series -- and those who have come up short -- seethed Monday at Commissioner Rob Manfred's reference to the sport's championship trophy as merely a "piece of metal," saying that comment reflected a disconnect between baseball's boss and those who produce the product on the field.

 

"It bothered me, man. I hated it. It made him sound really out of touch," said reliever Sean Doolittle, a member of the 2019 title-winning Washington Nationals. "That's the holy grail of our sport. That's what we show up for in the beginning of February, thinking about and working towards."

 

Added Doolittle: "I just can't believe how out of touch that is. You're the commissioner of our game. You're the steward of this game. That's a really special thing. It's an iconic symbol of our game. Please don't say that, even off-hand, even tongue-in-cheek."

 

As with so many things being talked about around the majors as spring training gets started, this all stems from the Houston Astros' sign-stealing scam in 2017 and 2018.

 

There have been calls for players involved to be punished in some way; MLB gave them immunity in exchange for cooperating with the investigation.

 

"I'm sure a lot of people were mad," three-time AL MVP Mike Trout said at Los Angeles Angels camp in Tempe, Arizona. "They think the punishment should be more or something."

 

Some think the Astros should be stripped of their 2017 championship, but Manfred said this on Sunday in an interview with ESPN: "The idea of an asterisk or asking for a piece of metal back seems like a futile act."

 

That phrasing did not sit well.

 

Doolittle and other players noted that the official name of the hardware itself is The Commissioner's Trophy.

 

"For him to devalue it the way he did yesterday just tells me how out of touch he is with the players in this game. At this point, the only thing devaluing that trophy is that it says 'commissioner' on it," said Justin Turner, whose Los Angeles Dodgers lost to the Astros in the 2017 Series.

 

"It's pretty obvious what everyone thinks should happen. I mean, no one in this clubhouse or in this room is asking for a trophy to be handed us, by any means. ... But at the same time, we understand how difficult it is to win a World Series. It's hard. It's really hard. And it's something that you have to earn," Turner said at LA's camp in Glendale, Arizona. "It's pretty evident to me that it wasn't earned and it's not something that a banner should be hung in their stadium (or) a trophy should be put up wherever their trophies go."

 

Like Turner, Evan Longoria has been to a World Series but not won one.

 

And as with Turner, Longoria was bothered by Manfred's words.

 

"Well, there's a couple of pieces of metal, right? You get a ring, too. That's a big piece of metal," Longoria said Monday after the San Francisco Giants' first full-squad workout in Scottsdale, Arizona. "I think everybody that plays the game knows it's not just a 'piece of metal.' It's the blood, sweat and tears that go into the, whatever, 175 games or whatever it is that it takes to win a World Series. The sacrifices. I don't know if he said that to make a funny or what, but it's obviously representative of something much bigger than that."

 

Joe Musgrove, currently with the Pittsburgh Pirates, pitched for the 2017 Astros and said he gets others' frustration with Manfred's comments.

 

"They don't just hand those out; there's a lot of work that goes into getting one of those. So I can understand why they're upset about it," Musgrove said in Bradenton, Florida. "For me, personally, I think the ring is something that everyone takes with them and that's a special piece you can carry with you forever. There's only one trophy that gets made. That might be more important to the manager than anybody. But at the end of the season, as a team, getting to hold that thing up is pretty special. I understand where their frustration comes in."

 

Doolittle spoke Monday about the feeling of first holding the trophy Washington won by beating Houston in Game 7 in October.

 

"There were tears, man. ... It's hard to put into words what it is like to actually hold that trophy above your head for the first time," Doolittle said. "We saw how much that 'piece of metal' meant to the fans, going up and down the streets of D.C. We all know what it means to guys who have spent their whole career in the league, grinding, and they finally got to hold that thing."

 

Manfred gets to take another swing at the topic when he holds a news conference in Arizona on Tuesday.

[Spanky99]

Yet everyone knew they were doing it for 2 years and didn't say a thing. I don't disagree that using electronics is wrong and the team should get punished (although being better at stealing signs is an odd punishment). There should have been multiple draft picks removed. Who do you punish for players? Hitters that are on other teams now? Pitchers? Everyone who was on the team but financially only?

 

Because MLB f***ed up the first investigation they likely would lose anything that got into legal issues. Like I said MLB f***ed this up badly from a PR side, they had to know that the fans and media would over-react. I hate sloppy PR and they are guilty of that. Even now they have never said "Anyone caught doing anything like this moving forward will be given the death penalty". It's probably because they know baseball will try and cheat again.

 

Are you serious on the bolded part? lol. Sure, suspend the players that were involved for 10-15 games intermittently if need be without pay, whether on other teams or not. Announce the banner comes down and strip them of the title, ban all personnel involved for life, rule with an iron fist. Him giving all these people involved full immunity is embarrassing, a complete moron dropped the ball, Hurl... f*** him.

[Grant77]

I believe that Paul Beeston was one of two team presidents (or maybe 3) that did not want Rob Manfred to be the Commissioner.

[TheHurl]

Are you serious on the bolded part? lol. Sure, suspend the players that were involved for 10-15 games intermittently if need be without pay, whether on other teams or not. Announce the banner comes down and strip them of the title, ban all personnel involved for life, rule with an iron fist. Him giving all these people involved full immunity is embarrassing, a complete moron dropped the ball, Hurl... f*** him.

 

This is the part i am saying...he can't rule with an iron fist because he would lose any court case which follows based on precedent. He has no real power. All he can do is propose strong punishments moving forward. Think on a more realistic side instead of a fan. The only way to suspend players was to not release the investigation until you have everything

[glory]

There's definitely more cheating around the league, that is why I think he has no intention of vacating the 2017 WS. Once the 2018 Red Sox stuff comes out, then there will be an outcry to vacate that title as well. Then if we later find out the Cubs cheated in 2016, etc, etc, etc. He doesn't want to open that Pandora's Box.

[Brownie19]

nothing ironic about it as they two are not remotely the same, an individual cheating versus a Organisational effort from an entire team using a computer algorithm, and using technology to relay signs in real time...you're dum.

 

Because every team had players on Roids...this is not the same, it's not that hard bro. Players are mad because what the stros did crossed a line, and they and they alone went as far as they did. If everyone was doing it players would not be speaking out like they are.

 

Never said that, do you always put words in peoples mouths? it's a problem, but there are different levels of cheating... Anyone caught using roids or peds gets a hefty suspension , so what's the issue there? I was also talking about specifically WHY players are speaking so harshly on this, and not roids, it's because roids was rampant, this is different. If every team was doing what the stros did they would not be blasting them publicly because once it got out they would look like idiots..that's pretty common sense no? i never said it was not an "Issue" anywhere.

 

First - my original post was to simply create the discussion on whether cheating is cheating - or whether there are different levels of cheating. You obviously believe the later, but can't comprehend this type of complex discussion...instead you revert to insults even though I never really expressed any opinion or side on the matter (I just asked questions).

 

Second - you believe nobody speaks out or complains about pitchers using foreign substances or PED's because 'everyone is doing it'. To start, that doesn't make it right man. Also, at some point - not everyone was doing it. Someone started it. When only a few teams or 'some' players are doing it. Are you saying you'd be totally OK with teams stealing signs using in game technology if this became wide spread and 'everyone was doing it'?

 

Third - you actually have no idea whether certain pitchers actually benefit more than others from the foreign substances - or whether some teams actually have a better 'product' than other teams. I mean there are likely tons of teams trying to decode and steal signs....the Astros were perhaps just the most advanced.

 

Fourth - if you found out that teams were hiring chemists to come up with special mixtures that pitchers were using to improve their grip and spin rates? Would that be organized enough to make you, fans and other players care? I wouldn't be surprised in the least if that's already happening. Nobody, including the league seems to give a f*** about pitchers using sunscreen and rosin - so why not take it to the next level?

 

Fifth - players get penalized heavily for PED use. That's great, but if they've used it for years (without getting caught) and it helped them win divisions, awards and titles...why wouldn't other players be furious at them? Do they decide not to be furious simply because they probably have teammates who are doing the same thing and they don't want to hurt their poor little feelings? Isn't that pathetic?

[Deadpool]

It's astounding that they replaced Bud Selig with someone who seems even worse than Bud f***ing Selig.

 

qft

 

quoting MYSELF for truth...

[Spanky99]

This is the part i am saying...he can't rule with an iron fist because he would lose any court case which follows based on precedent. He has no real power. All he can do is propose strong punishments moving forward. Think on a more realistic side instead of a fan. The only way to suspend players was to not release the investigation until you have everything

 

There is no precedent though, why would he have no power on an elaborate scheme run by the org and players to cheat that hasn't been done before? How'd the PED and even the infamous Black Sox/Pete Rose penalties come to fruition? Yes, he should announce a very strong message moving forward, regardless. I'm sorry, the guy has no ball sack. The penalty given wasn't nearly enough, such a black eye on the sport. I guess you're right about not looking at it from a fan's point of view, but these guys make massive amounts of money because of the fans, they have to show more integrity, imo. This is why most MLB ball players are irate, what a mess. Geez...

[Brownie19]

I would hope you are able to distinguish the severity of cheating in an organization that cooked up a multi-tier technologically advanced cheating method involving everyone from the front office to the bench coach right down to the players, something on the level which baseball has never seen, vs an individual pitcher using something to enhance their grip. Systemic cheating vs. micro level individual small scale cheating don't really warrant the same kind of discussion, nor should they.

 

Because PED's, grip substances, and in game sign stealing has been around for 50+ years, using real time video technology is absurd, as players have said, "would be nice to know what's coming" it's on an entirely different level, Brownie. They see it as those players getting off scot-free, and I agree with them.

 

Seriously, f*** the Stro's and possibly Red Sox players that were involved in live video cheating, and Manfred's a f***ing moron to boot, f*** that guy.

 

I get it. I'm not picking a side at all. I'm just curious how people see this and I'm fascinated at the harsh outburst from fans and players. I find it interesting that some people can draw lines and say 'oh that cheating, that's fine, but this other cheating, that's crossing the line and i'm furious and everyone should be shot and tear down those banners'. How do you draw that line? How do players call out other players when they know they have teammates who also cheat (even if it's at a different 'level' in their mind).

 

Will this scandal make players think twice about 'cheating' this year and in the future? Will pitchers stop using foreign substances? Will teams stop trying to decode signs from video and stealing signs in game (without using technology)? Will players reconsider using PEDs?

[glory]

There is no precedent though, why would he have no power on an elaborate scheme run by the org and players to cheat that hasn't been done before? How'd the PED and even the infamous Black Sox/Pete Rose penalties come to fruition? Yes, he should announce a very strong message moving forward, regardless. I'm sorry, the guy has no ball sack. The penalty given wasn't nearly enough, such a black eye on the sport. I guess you're right about not looking at it from a fan's point of view, but these guys make massive amounts of money because of the fans, they have to show more integrity, imo. This is why most MLB ball players are irate, what a mess. Geez...

 

I think Manfred was not allowed to penalize the players (due to the MLBPA), which is why they were granted immunity. The most he probably could have done without legal backlash was vacated the title, and I think that would have solved a lot of the PR mess that followed, but he decided not to open that box, and it has cost him dearly in the court of public opinion. Honestly if he suspended no one and just vacated the 2017 title, I think all of this blows over. I'm curious to see if he decides to change his mind and vacate it now that he's found himself in a PR mess, but I still doubt it because as mentioned I think a lot of teams are electronically cheating and he wants to bury this as quickly as possible.

 

Regardless I don't know how in the world he could not stop himself for verbally degrading the World Series trophy in a sport that he's directly responsible for improving revenue. I used to sympathize with him because I think fixing baseball is not going to be easy, but it seems he's done everything wrong or shown little/no effort in trying to improve it. Even his words show no love for the game.

[Spanky99]

I think Manfred was not allowed to penalize the players (due to the MLBPA), which is why they were granted immunity. The most he probably could have done without legal backlash was vacated the title, and I think that would have solved a lot of the PR mess that followed, but he decided not to open that box, and it has cost him dearly in the court of public opinion. Honestly if he suspended no one and just vacated the 2017 title, I think all of this blows over. I'm curious to see if he decides to change his mind and vacate it now that he's found himself in a PR mess, but I still doubt it because as mentioned I think a lot of teams are electronically cheating and he wants to bury this as quickly as possible.

 

Regardless I don't know how in the world he could not stop himself for verbally degrading the World Series trophy in a sport that he's directly responsible for improving revenue. I used to sympathize with him because I think fixing baseball is not going to be easy, but it seems he's done everything wrong or shown little/no effort in trying to improve it. Even his words show no love for the game.

 

Ah, thanks. Now I follow that train of thought. Like I said what a mess. Also, good post.

[Spanky99]

Will this scandal make players think twice about 'cheating' this year and in the future? Will pitchers stop using foreign substances? Will teams stop trying to decode signs from video and stealing signs in game (without using technology)? Will players reconsider using PEDs?

 

No, they won't considering the money getting thrown around on player careers for the latter examples, but they can nip this in the bud for the foreseeable future by announcing orgs and players with stiff penalties for using live in game technological cheating.

 

I'm not going to comment on the first paragraph as I think I've made myself pretty clear.

[glory]

 

 

Love seeing Manfred get roasted by not only baseball players, but by the biggest sports star in the world right now.

[TheHurl]

I think Manfred was not allowed to penalize the players (due to the MLBPA), which is why they were granted immunity. The most he probably could have done without legal backlash was vacated the title, and I think that would have solved a lot of the PR mess that followed, but he decided not to open that box, and it has cost him dearly in the court of public opinion. Honestly if he suspended no one and just vacated the 2017 title, I think all of this blows over. I'm curious to see if he decides to change his mind and vacate it now that he's found himself in a PR mess, but I still doubt it because as mentioned I think a lot of teams are electronically cheating and he wants to bury this as quickly as possible.

 

Regardless I don't know how in the world he could not stop himself for verbally degrading the World Series trophy in a sport that he's directly responsible for improving revenue. I used to sympathize with him because I think fixing baseball is not going to be easy, but it seems he's done everything wrong or shown little/no effort in trying to improve it. Even his words show no love for the game.

 

I just saw his interview where he said that he granted the players immunity to co-operate in the investigation. Makes a lot of sense now. I agree he's handle everything he's said publicly in a terrible way.

[glory]

I just saw his interview where he said that he granted the players immunity to co-operate in the investigation. Makes a lot of sense now. I agree he's handle everything he's said publicly in a terrible way.

 

From an Athletic article (I don't have a sub so just a snippet):

 

"Any potential punishments to Astros players would have prompted grievances and wound up before an arbitrator. And in the words of an official with knowledge of these matters, MLB would have been 'smoked'. Another person experienced in this area said that MLB's case would have been 'brutal' and the league would 'look a fool'...."

 

That's why I don't really blame Manfred for no penalties for the players. It was out of his control. Everything else he did/said was trash, though.

[Spanky99]

Manfred press conference tonight, damage control... good listen.

 

https://www.mlb.com/news/rob-manfred-news-conference

[TheHurl]

Pete Rose penalties come to fruition?

 

Pete Rose was a perfect example on why sometimes bowing to public opinion and doing the PR thing is bad. The rule had for 60 years said

(2) Any player, umpire, or Club or League official or employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon

any baseball game in connection with which the bettor has a duty to perform, shall be declared

permanently ineligible.

.

They negotiated with Rose. Now we find out that they wanted to give him a 2 year suspension, all he had to do is hand over the documents which showed he never bet as a player and never bet against his team as he had stated. He instead signed for the permanent ban for the investigation to end. For 30 years Pete Rose has made bank, based on his lies (we now know he bet as a player and that his gambling involvement was much bigger than he said, leaving enough suspicion that he bet against his team), and baseball has had a PR disaster every year they have a HOF vote.

 

The Owners and the MLBPA have the power these days. Scary that all these fans could find proof but the MLB, who has the greatest sports media arm, had to sign an immunity agreement to get "proof".

[Brownie19]

Pete Rose was a perfect example on why sometimes bowing to public opinion and doing the PR thing is bad. The rule had for 60 years said

.

They negotiated with Rose. Now we find out that they wanted to give him a 2 year suspension, all he had to do is hand over the documents which showed he never bet as a player and never bet against his team as he had stated. He instead signed for the permanent ban for the investigation to end. For 30 years Pete Rose has made bank, based on his lies (we now know he bet as a player and that his gambling involvement was much bigger than he said, leaving enough suspicion that he bet against his team), and baseball has had a PR disaster every year they have a HOF vote.

 

The Owners and the MLBPA have the power these days. Scary that all these fans could find proof but the MLB, who has the greatest sports media arm, had to sign an immunity agreement to get "proof".

 

I didn't know that. Interesting.

[Spanky99]

I just saw his interview where he said that he granted the players immunity to co-operate in the investigation. Makes a lot of sense now. I agree he's handle everything he's said publicly in a terrible way.

 

Yeah, I hadn't known that either, but you'd think players around the league would know this, they're barking at the wrong person. Now having the title taken away is a fair ask from the players and fans. Stro fans would have to swallow it, and look at their franchise as the problem.

 

This interview is really good though, I suggest everyone listen to it. I'm not as livid anymore, but I still think F U Astros and Manfred for seperate reasons.

 

ETA: I have to reiterate How the f*** do all these players not know about the deal within their own union, are they that dumb? And yes I'm still in favour of more blood.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Spanky99

[Spanky99]

I didn't know that. Interesting.

 

Right? I didn't know that either, or simply forgot... mind blown twice in the last hour, lol.

[max silver]

Manfred press conference tonight, damage control... good listen.

 

https://www.mlb.com/news/rob-manfred-news-conference

 

With the information provided within this press conference it does certainly change the overall picture from one that MLB completely f***ed up, to one where MLB took the poison pill presented by the players union, who end up being very complicit on the guilty parties completely avoiding punishment in what is one of the biggest cheating scandals in modern sporting history. Not getting any cooperation from the players without blanket immunity has turned out to be a huge mistake by the players union based on how angry the overall player base is about this. I think an interesting option going forward is to re-open this investigation, and present the players union with some new options. Either the players union waives this immunity for the guilty parties, or the championship is taken away from Houston completely.