General 2020 Blue Jays Discussion Thread

[Laika]

Odds that Vlad has the worst career out of the son of major leaguer prospects? lol

 

Honestly pretty good at this point

[BlueRocky]

Fisher needs more playing time to find his bat, probably not happening this year unless Teo is out for an extended period. His ability to get on base already puts him ahead of Alford I think.

[Boxcar]

You have literally no idea what his weight is, you are guessing. That simply isn't publicly available information.

 

You're also comparing 514 PAs last season to 160 this season.

 

GB% this year has gone from 68.2% in July, to 56.1% in August to 46.2% in September so far, that is an improvement of over 20% already this year. Of the top 5 players on the Jays with the lowest GB% you have Janssen (the lowest), Drury, Espinal, Shaw and Teo is #2 for goo measure, so GB% != success.

 

I don't think you hate Vlad because you bring up stats, I think you hate Vlad because you INCESSANTLY try to compare him to the best players in the league, you take every opportunity to s*** on him. Objectively he's been an asset to the team, and since nobody on the "f*** Vladdy" squad seems to remember this or think it's remotely relevant, he's doing this as the youngest player on the team. HE. IS. LEARNING. HOW. TO. PLAY. MAJOR. LEAGUE. BASEBALL. AT. AN. AGE. WHERE. MOST. BASEBALL. PLAYERS. ARE. IN. THE. LOW. MINORS.

 

I noticed that you didn't post their respective GB rates other than saying one is first and one is second. I wonder why that is?

 

Stop getting so personally offended that Vlad sucks ass and people are pointing it out. We are living in a world where, never mind Biggio and Bichette, Rowdy Tellez might have a better career than Vlad. Better hitter and much better first baseman. Right now, Vlad is looking a lot more like Delmon Young than Prince Fielder.

[Boxcar]

Derek Fisher continues to crush balls. Into the ground. Never swing outside the zone but barely make any contact when he swings.

 

Such a strange profile. It's literally Joey Gallo without launch angle.

 

I always feel like, unless it's just a glaring, unfixable issue (like Alford being unable to hit a fastball higher than 91mph) there must be some combination of tweaks where Fisher becomes an above average regular. He is displaying the behaviours of a good hitter, he just still seems strangely very raw. He needs more ML exposure imo before we can figure out what he is. Idk, maybe I'm way off. Such a frustratingly enticing package.

[Jays24]

Sooo... let's say Grichuk, Teo and Gurriel keep up their current production into next year. Then we find out that Austin Martin is also ready to contribute to the team at the big league level. Who's the odd man out?

[max silver]

I noticed that you didn't post their respective GB rates other than saying one is first and one is second. I wonder why that is?

 

Stop getting so personally offended that Vlad sucks ass and people are pointing it out. We are living in a world where, never mind Biggio and Bichette, Rowdy Tellez might have a better career than Vlad. Better hitter and much better first baseman. Right now, Vlad is looking a lot more like Delmon Young than Prince Fielder.

 

We have a young player that has only had about 6 months in MLB, in two of those he's put up very good numbers, in a few he's been a little better than average, and in a few months he's really struggled. In this season he has improved upon his plate discipline numbers and is on average hitting the ball harder. Why in the world should we make any conclusions about what the finished product is, especially by basing this conclusion on how the player is looking when he's at his worst?

[max silver]

Sooo... let's say Grichuk, Teo and Gurriel keep up their current production into next year. Then we find out that Austin Martin is also ready to contribute to the team at the big league level. Who's the odd man out?

 

It's still possible Martin shifts over to third base, so maybe none of these guys?

[Boxcar]

We have a young player that has only had about 6 months in MLB, in two of those he's put up very good numbers, in a few he's been a little better than average, and in a few months he's really struggled. In this season he has improved upon his plate discipline numbers and is on average hitting the ball harder. Why in the world should we make any conclusions about what the finished product is, especially by basing this conclusion on how the player is looking when he's at his worst?

 

Where did I make any conclusions? Vlad, right now, sucks ass. Vlad's batted ball profile, right now, sucks ass. Is there a chance Vlad won't suck ass in the future? Of course, but we are looking at underlying numbers. Vlad seems like he has very low baseball IQ. At first, he's at least twice helped along a loss by going for a ball headed for the 2B and no one is at first to take the throw. He consistently fails to pick balls, which he should be able to do as a former 3B. Right now, he's looking like a pure DH and hasn't hit well enough to justify it.

 

You also can't get upset with people getting frustrated watching Vlad flail away while guys like Soto, Acuna, Tatis, Robert, etc. exist

[Jays24]

It's still possible Martin shifts over to third base, so maybe none of these guys?

 

Thats true. I just had it envisioned he'd be a CF but thats not based on much. As great as our current OF is, none of them are really CFs.

[saskjayfan]

Man a decent lineup today. How refreshing.

[max silver]

Where did I make any conclusions? Vlad, right now, sucks ass. Vlad's batted ball profile, right now, sucks ass. Is there a chance Vlad won't suck ass in the future? Of course, but we are looking at underlying numbers. Vlad seems like he has very low baseball IQ. At first, he's at least twice helped along a loss by going for a ball headed for the 2B and no one is at first to take the throw. He consistently fails to pick balls, which he should be able to do as a former 3B. Right now, he's looking like a pure DH and hasn't hit well enough to justify it.

 

You also can't get upset with people getting frustrated watching Vlad flail away while guys like Soto, Acuna, Tatis, Robert, etc. exist

 

If it had been up to people that only look at the short term and jump to conclusions we wouldn't even be witnessing the massive steps forward that players like Teoscar and Rowdy look to be taking. This team's history is full of late bloomers who struggled in several go rounds of MLB playing time, but once everything clicked for them they turned into monsters eventually. There are guys like Carlos Delgado, Jose Bautista, Edwin Encarnacion, Josh Donaldson, and most recently Teoscar Hernandez as perfect examples. I can understand frustration of seeing other phenoms instantly become stars, but before the last few years can you really think of many examples of guys who instantly became stars like this outside of one or two guys per generation? I see no utility in writing guys off so soon before they have a chance to take their lumps at the highest level and make the necessary swing and/or approach tweaks in order to maximize their success. This is still a supremely talented 21!!! year old player, it's not like he's a late 20's guy signed out of Japan who's at the make it or break it stage. There are plenty of plusses to the guy's tools still, the plate discipline is decent and improving at this early age, he has a pretty low strikeout rate and decent walk rate for such a young player so it's not like he has no idea what he's doing. Sure it sucks to see Vladdy have growing pains at the major league level, but what choice is there but to keep running him out there and seeing if he can improve?

[Boxcar]

If it had been up to people that only look at the short term and jump to conclusions we wouldn't even be witnessing the massive steps forward that players like Teoscar and Rowdy look to be taking. This team's history is full of late bloomers who struggled in several go rounds of MLB playing time, but once everything clicked for them they turned into monsters eventually. There are guys like Carlos Delgado, Jose Bautista, Edwin Encarnacion, Josh Donaldson, and most recently Teoscar Hernandez as perfect examples. I can understand frustration of seeing other phenoms instantly become stars, but before the last few years can you really think of many examples of guys who instantly became stars like this outside of one or two guys per generation? I see no utility in writing guys off so soon before they have a chance to take their lumps at the highest level and make the necessary swing and/or approach tweaks in order to maximize their success. This is still a supremely talented 21!!! year old player, it's not like he's a late 20's guy signed out of Japan who's at the make it or break it stage. There are plenty of plusses to the guy's tools still, the plate discipline is decent and improving at this early age, he has a pretty low strikeout rate and decent walk rate for such a young player so it's not like he has no idea what he's doing. Sure it sucks to see Vladdy have growing pains at the major league level, but what choice is there but to keep running him out there and seeing if he can improve?

 

I suppose you're right. I guess I'm just kind of frustrated because he gives me the impression that he doesn't care. For example, gets in better shape for ST, Covid hits, shows up in July with an extra 30 pounds, like he thinks he can just get fat and less fat depending on whether baseball is being played. It's a commitment. The fact that the Jays will probably make the playoffs doesnt help as they are obviously trying to groom him as the 1B of the future while Tellez is far better at that position. It's frustrating.

 

I'm perfectly happy to eat crow on Hernandez and I find it quite admirable that you haven't shoved my face in it.

[dineke]

I'd bet much more angry about Vlad if Bo and biggio didn't turn out so good. Also teo, Tellez, and grichuck have been nice surprises. Lourdes continues to hit. Honestly our lineup has taken a massive step this year albeit a small sample size.

[Jays24]

I'd bet much more angry about Vlad if Bo and biggio didn't turn out so good. Also teo, Tellez, and grichuck have been nice surprises. Lourdes continues to hit. Honestly our lineup has taken a massive step this year albeit a small sample size.

 

This is a good thing though. I think we all see potential in Vlad still. It's great that we can allow him more time to develop and not crucify him.

 

Maybe he can use this season to understand he just can't get by on just talent alone. He will need to bust his ass to become great. If he is still struggling come next year then I will join the hate bangwagon lol

Edited September 7, 2020 by Jays24

[Olerud363]

If it had been up to people that only look at the short term and jump to conclusions we wouldn't even be witnessing the massive steps forward that players like Teoscar and Rowdy look to be taking. This team's history is full of late bloomers who struggled in several go rounds of MLB playing time, but once everything clicked for them they turned into monsters eventually. There are guys like Carlos Delgado, Jose Bautista, Edwin Encarnacion, Josh Donaldson, and most recently Teoscar Hernandez as perfect examples. I can understand frustration of seeing other phenoms instantly become stars, but before the last few years can you really think of many examples of guys who instantly became stars like this outside of one or two guys per generation? I see no utility in writing guys off so soon before they have a chance to take their lumps at the highest level and make the necessary swing and/or approach tweaks in order to maximize their success. This is still a supremely talented 21!!! year old player, it's not like he's a late 20's guy signed out of Japan who's at the make it or break it stage. There are plenty of plusses to the guy's tools still, the plate discipline is decent and improving at this early age, he has a pretty low strikeout rate and decent walk rate for such a young player so it's not like he has no idea what he's doing. Sure it sucks to see Vladdy have growing pains at the major league level, but what choice is there but to keep running him out there and seeing if he can improve?

 

You are 100% right on all of this. However on the other hand fans are pretty smart, they've seen a lot, Jayson Heyward, Jesus Montero, Brett Lawrie, Delmon Young, Nick Johnson.

 

There's a bit of mourning because the sure fire upper echelon franchise player, our Soto/Acuna/Tatis/Pujols feels like he's gone. It feels like it's a coin flip now. He could work it out like Delgado or he could go the way of those other guys.

[RustyTrombone]

You are 100% right on all of this. However on the other hand fans are pretty smart, they've seen a lot, Jayson Heyward, Jesus Montero, Brett Lawrie, Delmon Young, Nick Johnson.

 

There's a bit of mourning because the sure fire upper echelon franchise player, our Soto/Acuna/Tatis/Pujols feels like he's gone. It feels like it's a coin flip now. He could work it out like Delgado or he could go the way of those other guys.

 

Do you not realize that Bo is that franchise type of guy for us? FFS move on from Vladdy dude holy s***.

 

Just the fact that one of our TWO elite positional prospects blossomed into a corner stone piece should make people ecstatic but nooooooo people have to s*** on the 21 yo for being league average.

[Deadpool]

You are 100% right on all of this. However on the other hand fans are pretty smart, they've seen a lot, Jayson Heyward, Jesus Montero, Brett Lawrie, Delmon Young, Nick Johnson.

 

There's a bit of mourning because the sure fire upper echelon franchise player, our Soto/Acuna/Tatis/Pujols feels like he's gone. It feels like it's a coin flip now. He could work it out like Delgado or he could go the way of those other guys.

 

None of those "bust" guys had numbers in the minors that really compared to what Vladdy did, though. Heyward in AA was probably the closest, and as much as Heyward didn't live up to his hype, he's still playing, and has 32.5 career WAR so far.

 

Is it fair to say that you expected more from him because of his minor league numbers? Absolutely, I did as well. Is it fair to say he's a bust? Absolutely not. Could he be a bust? Maybe, but it's not like the skills he displayed putting up a 1.073 across 4 levels in 2018 as an 18/19 year old aren't the same skills needed to succeed in the majors. There's nothing more for him to do in the minors (he could benefit from several more years of defensive coaching, but it would be unreasonable to keep him down there just for D), and he's been a positive value player so far in the majors, even if it hasn't been AS positive as we had all hoped yet.

[Slade]

[43211234]

The fact that it is debatable whether Teoscar goes on the IL or not sounds like a win in the big picture.

[Jays24]

Really hope Teo isn't out for a while man. Need to see this team fully healthy. Our lineup will be super dangerous and so damn deep.

 

2B Biggio

SS Bo

DH/1B Tellez

RF Hernendez

CF Grichuk

DH/1B Vladdy

LF Gurriel

3B Shaw/Villar

C Who cares

[JFD]

Vlad just seems mentally immature still. The talent is there but he's the attitude of a spoiled brat that has never worked a day in his life. The way he's slamming his bat and throwing hissy fits lately reminds me of my 13 year old nephew that expects to be good at hockey while being a lazy ass in practice and always goofing off(surprise he sucks). I could understand the outbursts if he was putting in work and busting his ass to improve but it still looks like he expects things to comes easy

[max silver]

The fact that it is debatable whether Teoscar goes on the IL or not sounds like a win in the big picture.

 

They better be pretty damn careful with this though, oblique injuries are super easy to aggravate and go directly back to square one.

[Laika]

Do you not realize that Bo is that franchise type of guy for us? FFS move on from Vladdy dude holy s***.

 

Just the fact that one of our TWO elite positional prospects blossomed into a corner stone piece should make people ecstatic but nooooooo people have to s*** on the 21 yo for being league average.

 

People are allowed to critically discuss Vladimir Guerrero Jr without praising the baseball gods for Bo Bichette. It’s just a discussion about a specific player. Not everything needs to be viewed through the lens of total team fandom

[max silver]

None of those "bust" guys had numbers in the minors that really compared to what Vladdy did, though. Heyward in AA was probably the closest, and as much as Heyward didn't live up to his hype, he's still playing, and has 32.5 career WAR so far.

 

Is it fair to say that you expected more from him because of his minor league numbers? Absolutely, I did as well. Is it fair to say he's a bust? Absolutely not. Could he be a bust? Maybe, but it's not like the skills he displayed putting up a 1.073 across 4 levels in 2018 as an 18/19 year old aren't the same skills needed to succeed in the majors. There's nothing more for him to do in the minors (he could benefit from several more years of defensive coaching, but it would be unreasonable to keep him down there just for D), and he's been a positive value player so far in the majors, even if it hasn't been AS positive as we had all hoped yet.

 

To me it looks like the biggest thing that has been missing with Vladdy is the drive to maximize his talents that the best players have built into them. Guys like Bo and Nate are hyper driven to keep improving in every aspect of being a professional athlete and to this point it's easy to question whether Vladdy has that same kind of desire. He really needs to figure out that being a professional athlete is a year round profession, especially given the body that he has been born into, he really can't afford to take several months off at a time like he did during the covid shutdown. Without knowing the guy directly it's impossible to say whether a teammate needs to read him the riot act, or the coaching staff needs to be tougher, or the front office staff needs to have a rather frank conversation with him about proper diet and conditioning, but sooner or later the message needs to hit home with him to really reach the potential he has within.

[Laika]

You are 100% right on all of this. However on the other hand fans are pretty smart, they've seen a lot, Jayson Heyward, Jesus Montero, Brett Lawrie, Delmon Young, Nick Johnson.

 

There's a bit of mourning because the sure fire upper echelon franchise player, our Soto/Acuna/Tatis/Pujols feels like he's gone. It feels like it's a coin flip now. He could work it out like Delgado or he could go the way of those other guys.

 

This is 100% it.

 

Lots of star 1B/DH were mediocre for a couple of years and then learned how to become elite hitters. Even if Vlad does that, it seems impossible for him to be a real superstar given his glaring issues. Some people are mourning the loss of the possibility. It’s stupid, but I think that’s the motivation. Everybody realizes he has the tools to figure it out and the team should give him a rope six years long.

[King]

This is 100% it.

 

Lots of star 1B/DH were mediocre for a couple of years and then learned how to become elite hitters. Even if Vlad does that, it seems impossible for him to be a real superstar given his glaring issues. Some people are mourning the loss of the possibility. It’s stupid, but I think that’s the motivation. Everybody realizes he has the tools to figure it out and the team should give him a rope six years long.

 

Looks like a 21 year old Nomar Mazara right now.

[baubau]

So... we're all on the same boat? We expect Atkins to fly out to SD and get Peller drunk so he can swindle him into trading CJ Abrams and Luis Patino for Vladdy? Throw in an Owen Caissie for some good ol canadian boy charm?

 

I am only half joking here, if this team felt comfortable trading Vladdy I would be behind it. The package has to be incredible and not trading a player for the sake of a trade.

[Slade]

Don't look now but we are 4 1/2 games back of first in the division.

[Spanky99]

Derek Fisher continues to crush balls. Into the ground. Never swing outside the zone but barely make any contact when he swings.

 

Such a strange profile. It's literally Joey Gallo without launch angle.

 

I don't mind what Fisher has brought thus far, a wRC+ of 122 is a pleasant surprise, I agree he and Vlad need to get some launch in their game and we're good, not going to even pretend to worry about Vladito at 21 years old.

 

Sooo... let's say Grichuk, Teo and Gurriel keep up their current production into next year. Then we find out that Austin Martin is also ready to contribute to the team at the big league level. Who's the odd man out?

 

It's still possible Martin shifts over to third base, so maybe none of these guys?

 

Maybe you guys wait for the guy to get some professional AB's first, I find it highly unlikely that he's sporting a MLB uniform next season, Groshan's might be different.

[Virgil_Hiltz]

To me it looks like the biggest thing that has been missing with Vladdy is the drive to maximize his talents that the best players have built into them. Guys like Bo and Nate are hyper driven to keep improving in every aspect of being a professional athlete and to this point it's easy to question whether Vladdy has that same kind of desire. He really needs to figure out that being a professional athlete is a year round profession, especially given the body that he has been born into, he really can't afford to take several months off at a time like he did during the covid shutdown. Without knowing the guy directly it's impossible to say whether a teammate needs to read him the riot act, or the coaching staff needs to be tougher, or the front office staff needs to have a rather frank conversation with him about proper diet and conditioning, but sooner or later the message needs to hit home with him to really reach the potential he has within.

 

My only concern for Vladdy is his fitness and health. His dad was very lean and fit and could run like a gazelle, then as he approached his 30's he could hardly run or throw due to his lack of fitness.

If he takes after his dad for maintaining his health and fitness then ugh.....