General 2020 Blue Jays Discussion Thread

[BlueRocky]

If anyone is harboring resentment that a former scrub like Gio Urshela just so happened to become good with the Yankees after stinking it up with two MLB teams previously (including a brief stop here), give your heads a shake. These things happen and it will happen again. It's just the nature of the sport.

 

Honestly, I'm happy for Gio. This is not even a case of "what could've been" - it's just a complete non-issue.

 

Random scrubs become MLB players all the time, Tim Lopes was a career Blue Jays minor league org player and became a regular with the Mariners. Harold Ramirez and Dwight Smith jr are other examples of guys that found roles on other teams but couldn’t even win a bench role here. Liam Hendriks became Oakland’s closer.

 

These things literally happen all the time, so people just gotta look forward.

Edited August 6, 2020 by BlueRocky

[Laika]

Is this the year that Vlad becomes a superstar?

 

 

(no)

[EastCoaster]

Urshela looked nothing like this before the Yankees.

To be fair they identified the talent, signed him and gave him playing time. That’s more than a lot of other clubs. It just didn’t happen here.

 

No that's not what happened he was first signed by Shapiro and Atkins back 2008 in the Cleveland Indians organization an international free agent the traded for him for cash he came to the Blue jays played in 19 games 43 AB and they traded him to the Yankees for $25,000 because the injury plague season they had and Andujar was injured. Upon arrival to the Bronx he worked with the hitting coach changed his stance at the rest is history. It turned out he became a better player at 3rd base than Andujar and they moved him to the outfield with Gio at 3rd base.

 

Urshela was never given a chance as he played very sparingly in Cleveland and Toronto only when he went to New York was given an opportunity to play regularly and with the help of hitting coach became one of best 3rd baseman in the league.

[P2F]

(no)

 

Keith Law was right. Tatis > Vlad.

[EastCoaster]

It more likely speaks to how advanced the Yankees are at squeezing talent out of players. Nothing more nothing less. Gio was a nobody before getting to the Bronx.

 

No it shows how some coaches are much better of identifying underlying problems with players and turn them into real good players.

[BlueRocky]

The glove was always there, the question was always his bat. He had 453 plate appearances in Cleveland and never close to a league average hitter. There was no reason to believe he would hit for 132 wRC+ in 2019. He could’ve played two seasons here and never figure out what he did in New York, so these hypotheticals have no real meaning. The team identified the talent in Urshela and gave him playing time, that’s a lot more than other clubs did.

 

Yankees coaches and development staff are good, that’s no secret.

Edited August 6, 2020 by BlueRocky

[Laika]

Keith Law was right. Tatis > Vlad.

 

Keith Law was so emphatically right on that point that it should legitimize his entire operation. We should all subscribe to The Athletic to see his work.

[glory]

The Yankees have a track record of developing hitters recently. Not many teams have that sort of consistent success turning hitters around. He went into the right situation and got fixed. That never would have happened here in all likelihood.

 

I do think it's fair to question the MLB development for the Jays (Vlad looks like a mess and he's as close to can't miss as there is as an offensive talent) but Urshela is not an example of that.

[BlueRocky]

Before we start questioning the Blue Jays development staff, we need to give credit where it’s due. They helped Cavan Biggio go from an org player to a legitimate core member. They helped Bichette go from fringe second baseman to MLB shortstop defensively. They turned Rule 5 guy Jordan Romano into a reliable BP arm. They helped Danny Jansen go from 16th round pick to one of the best budding young catchers in the MLB. They identified Gurriel’s defensive woes and helped him become a solid outfielder. It’s not all bad guys. Edited August 6, 2020 by BlueRocky

[BlueRocky]

[Laika]

Before we start questioning the Blue Jays development staff, we need to give credit where it’s due. They helped Cavan Biggio go from an org player to a legitimate core member. They helped Bichette go from fringe second baseman to MLB shortstop defensively. They turned Rule 5 guy Jordan Romano into a reliable BP arm. They helped Danny Jansen go from 16th round pick to one of the best budding young catchers in the MLB. They identified Gurriel’s defensive woes and helped him become a solid outfielder. It’s not all bad guys.

 

Baseball organizations are so huge that you just can't look at specific players like Urshela and get any information from their path about an organization's competencies. A good org will have developmental failures and a bad org will have successes - you need to look at the total picture.

 

Toronto is clearly on the right path, as you say. You can also point to players like Kirk, Pearson, Hatch, Kay, Borucki, Font, Thornton, Groshans, etc. In one way or another guys like that are success stories.

 

You need to balance out all the stories and see which side is heavier and recognize that the majority of players will fail no matter what the org does. On the bad side Toronto hasn't had success with SRF, Alford, Drury, McKinney, Hector Perez, maybe Kevin Smith, to name a few.

[Spanky99]

Alford lives on... guys with options move to the taxi squad.

 

[Ray]

Before we start questioning the Blue Jays development staff, we need to give credit where it’s due. They helped Cavan Biggio go from an org player to a legitimate core member. They helped Bichette go from fringe second baseman to MLB shortstop defensively. They turned Rule 5 guy Jordan Romano into a reliable BP arm. They helped Danny Jansen go from 16th round pick to one of the best budding young catchers in the MLB. They identified Gurriel’s defensive woes and helped him become a solid outfielder. It’s not all bad guys.

 

Eric Sogard hit more runs for the Blue Jays in 55 games than he did in his entire career up to that point.

 

It's not like the Blue Jays haven't had their fair share of turning around players coming off down seasons either: Francisco Liriano, Jason Grilli, Joaquin Benoit, Dominic Leone, Aledmys Diaz, Eric Sogard, David Phelps. People tend to be more blind to the good things happening to their own team sometimes.

[Slade]

Alford might actually survive the season. They were suppose to go down to 26 man roster but they changed it to 28 now.

[Boxcar]

Keith Law was right. Tatis > Vlad.

 

Get those words outcha mouth

[metafour]

Baseball organizations are so huge that you just can't look at specific players like Urshela and get any information from their path about an organization's competencies. A good org will have developmental failures and a bad org will have successes - you need to look at the total picture.

 

Toronto is clearly on the right path, as you say. You can also point to players like Kirk, Pearson, Hatch, Kay, Borucki, Font, Thornton, Groshans, etc. In one way or another guys like that are success stories.

 

You need to balance out all the stories and see which side is heavier and recognize that the majority of players will fail no matter what the org does. On the bad side Toronto hasn't had success with SRF, Alford, Drury, McKinney, Hector Perez, maybe Kevin Smith, to name a few.

 

Furthermore, if the Yankees had some "secret formula", why didn't Drury and McKinney flourish with them? Both were obviously talented/capable hitters.

[glory]

Before we start questioning the Blue Jays development staff, we need to give credit where it’s due. They helped Cavan Biggio go from an org player to a legitimate core member. They helped Bichette go from fringe second baseman to MLB shortstop defensively. They turned Rule 5 guy Jordan Romano into a reliable BP arm. They helped Danny Jansen go from 16th round pick to one of the best budding young catchers in the MLB. They identified Gurriel’s defensive woes and helped him become a solid outfielder. It’s not all bad guys.

 

That's why I said MLB development. The Yankees can identify Hicks, Didi, Urshela, Voit, Tauchman, etc, and turn them around almost instantly. That's not a fluke. Either they are cheating or they are superior in developing hitters than just about anyone (I'll assume the latter for now). The Jays don't have that track record at the big league level. They look very good at drafting and international scouting, but we have to see that manifest into MLB results. The Yankees aren't perfect either. They fell in love with Drury before the Jays did, but sold as high as they could when they couldn't fix him. Either way, the Jays have time. It's still early in the careers of their top young players.

[Laika]

Furthermore, if the Yankees had some "secret formula", why didn't Drury and McKinney flourish with them? Both were obviously talented/capable hitters.

 

Yankees' boosters would say something like knowing when to give up on a player and get some value for them is part of being perfect.

 

Maybe a better example though is Clint Frazier. All the tools in the world, they've had him since 2016, and they haven't been able to turn him into a good enough baseball player to even be on their roster right now.

 

I think the only person who really deserves credit for Gio Urshela is Gio Urshela, as far as we know. Might just be dumb luck on the part of the Yankees that they happened to be holding the guy when he got good.

Luke Voit is more scouting than development. Looks like he was always a good hitter.

On the prospect/pitching side a lot of the Yankees developmental success is really just monetary success because they can outspend other teams on the international front.

 

The glaring signal for a good system though is Aaron Judge. That's a high risk prospect who performs at the top of his possible outcomes. In shittier organizations he probably looks like a very different player. Maybe.

[Orgfiller]

Yankees' boosters would say something like knowing when to give up on a player and get some value for them is part of being perfect.

 

Maybe a better example though is Clint Frazier. All the tools in the world, they've had him since 2016, and they haven't been able to turn him into a good enough baseball player to even be on their roster right now.

 

I think the only person who really deserves credit for Gio Urshela is Gio Urshela, as far as we know. Might just be dumb luck on the part of the Yankees that they happened to be holding the guy when he got good.

Luke Voit is more scouting than development. Looks like he was always a good hitter.

On the prospect/pitching side a lot of the Yankees developmental success is really just monetary success because they can outspend other teams on the international front.

 

The glaring signal for a good system though is Aaron Judge. That's a high risk prospect who performs at the top of his possible outcomes. In shittier organizations he probably looks like a very different player. Maybe.

 

If we're looking at Yankees failures Sonny Gray is an obvious candidate. They completely misused him, ended up moving him for pennies on the dollar and he pretty much immediately became an ace on the Reds.

[BlueBaller]

For now. Hell be a plug once he's a little less youthful.

[Orgfiller]

For now. Hell be a plug once he's a little less youthful.

 

Or he gets into better shape and becomes even faster! Wow, it goes both ways!

[John_Havok]

For now. Hell be a plug once he's a little less youthful.

 

It’s such a lazy and completely irrelevant comparison....hey guys, our 21 year old fatty has the same foot speed as someone who is 10 years older and has been a great offensive player for years ...so that must be good!

[jerb]

[G-Snarls]

Jays now dead last in the AL in runs scored, last in OBP and 3rd last in wRC+

[TheDragon]

Jays now dead last in the AL in runs scored, last in OBP and 3rd last in wRC+

 

Loads of talent, perhaps lacking player development to bring them to the next level?

[Olerud363]

Jays now dead last in the AL in runs scored, last in OBP and 3rd last in wRC+

 

They were last in average and almost last in on base percentage last year too

[Olerud363]

Yankees' boosters would say something like knowing when to give up on a player and get some value for them is part of being perfect.

 

Maybe a better example though is Clint Frazier. All the tools in the world, they've had him since 2016, and they haven't been able to turn him into a good enough baseball player to even be on their roster right now.

 

I think the only person who really deserves credit for Gio Urshela is Gio Urshela, as far as we know. Might just be dumb luck on the part of the Yankees that they happened to be holding the guy when he got good.

Luke Voit is more scouting than development. Looks like he was always a good hitter.

On the prospect/pitching side a lot of the Yankees developmental success is really just monetary success because they can outspend other teams on the international front.

 

The glaring signal for a good system though is Aaron Judge. That's a high risk prospect who performs at the top of his possible outcomes. In shittier organizations he probably looks like a very different player. Maybe.

 

Aaron Judge, Didi Gregorious, Aaron Hicks, Gary Sanchez, D.J. L, Gleyborre Torres have been their key players last three years. Guys like Voit, Mike Ford, Mike Tauchman and Gio seemed to have popped from no where.

 

Every org will have success stories and failures, Yankees have had a lot of success the last 3 years, a lot of pleasant surprises, a couple failures too... but I mean if Clint Frazier is the failure... like he's almost at a Teoscar/Gurriel level... and that's your failure, that's pretty good.

 

The Vlad things makes it frustrating, seems Yankees have a lot of pleasant surprises and their top prospects always...

 

Gleyber got better in the majors... imagine if Vlad had Judge/Gleyber minors to majors translation?? He'd hit .420 and win the triple crown.

--

 

Imagine if Judge/Gleyber had Vlad translations?? Judges would have a .380 slugging percentage....

 

Judge gains 100 points slugging in majors, Vlad loses 100 + points... Vlad still much younger obviously.

[Olerud363]

Gleyber Torres - Minor league slugging .419

Gleyber Torres - Major league slugging .501

 

80 point boost... imagine if Vlad got an 80 point slugging boost from minors to majors...

 

Fernando Tatis JR -- Minor league slugging .480 or something

Fernando Tatis JR -- Major league slugging .580 or something

 

100 point boost.

 

This is stupid. I'm sure someone can cherry pick failures too. Just seems everyone else's prospects these days are dynamite and a lot of fun... ours (who was hyped more than any of them) is a bit of chubby dud.

[glory]

Loads of talent, perhaps lacking player development to bring them to the next level?

 

Again, I think it's a fair question to ask. Teams are going to have failures. Not every prospect pans out, and not every intriguing guy with tools is fixable, but the Jays under Shatkins haven't had much success in developing/acquiring impact MLB bats. The Jays have one of the best hitting prospects in many years and he's drilling ground balls at a 75% clip. If 20-21 year old Vlad was a Yankee, would his GB rate be this problematic? Possibly, but my guess is no. Ultimately talent is required, and the Jays have talent, so a year or two from now the outlook is likely going to be dramatically different, but some orgs are better than others at player development. The Jays under the current regime have a lot of catching up to do in this area.

[G-Snarls]

They were last in average and almost last in on base percentage last year too

 

I know it's only 10 games, SSS, but was definitely expecting an improvement that just isn't happening yet and it's frustrating.