General 2020 Blue Jays Discussion Thread

[Dick_Pole]

I do not commend Giles for returning his ring. What a stupid move that changes nothing. Except now he doesn't have something that he will likely never win again.

[P2F]

I do not commend Giles for returning his ring. What a stupid move that changes nothing. Except now he doesn't have something that he will likely never win again.

 

In his defense, he once unironically threw hard fists at his own face on TV, so I'm not sure he's the sharpest knife in the drawer.

[Bobthe4th]

In his defense, he once unironically threw hard fists at his own face on TV, so I'm not sure he's the sharpest knife in the drawer.

 

Plus world series rings are garish and hidious!

[Spanky99]

Plus world series rings are garish and hidious!

 

*hideous*

[Deadpool]

You know who is sitting in the dugout between the innings late in games, right?

 

There's not a single f***ing chance any player on that team didn't know what was going on.

 

Get a clue!

 

If there's a player who I would buy as totally oblivious to his surroundings, it's Ken Giles...

[The Cats Ass]

You know who is sitting in the dugout between the innings late in games, right?

 

There's not a single f***ing chance any player on that team didn't know what was going on.

 

Get a clue!

 

Throughout the whole 2017 season he would have been on the bench between pitching innings around 4 times. It's not like RPs hangout on the bench a whole lot, and if they are it's more likely they're concentrating on who they're facing next. There's a slight chance some of them didn't know.

[Grant77]

Throughout the whole 2017 season he would have been on the bench between pitching innings around 4 times. It's not like RPs hangout on the bench a whole lot, and if they are it's more likely they're concentrating on who they're facing next. There's a slight chance some of them didn't know.

 

Particularly a closer who almost exclusively pitches after their team has finished batting.

[Dick_Pole]

In his defense, he once unironically threw hard fists at his own face on TV, so I'm not sure he's the sharpest knife in the drawer.

 

Yeah, I was going to add a mental health aspect to my post, but I felt that was a bit tasteless even for me.

[Bobthe4th]

[Laika]

Patrick Murphy is blowing people away and touching 98?

 

Were we too low on him???

 

Maybe he is our Indians Ace; our Clevinger, Bieber, etc.

 

(the umps + his own defense have blown three outs for him)

[BlueRocky]

Patrick Murphy is blowing people away and touching 98?

 

Were we too low on him???

 

Maybe he is our Indians Ace; our Clevinger, Bieber, etc.

 

(the umps + his own defense have blown three outs for him)

 

Murphy touched 100 MPH on multiple occasions in double-A last year and had starts sitting 96-97 deep into games.

 

He was a 95-98, T100 type guy with one plus breaking ball (curve) and developing changeup.

 

I heard Murphy is more comfortable now with his new delivery in spring training, hope he finds success in Buffalo and get called up quickly. The injury history is extensive and we shouldn’t be wasting too many bullets in the minors.

[max silver]

Murphy touched 100 MPH on multiple occasions in double-A last year and had starts sitting 96-97 deep into games.

 

He was a 95-98, T100 type guy with one plus breaking ball (curve) and developing changeup.

 

I heard Murphy is more comfortable now with his new delivery in spring training, hope he finds success in Buffalo and get called up quickly. The injury history is extensive and we shouldn’t be wasting too many bullets in the minors.

 

I read that he thinks his new delivery is actually allowing him to utilize his lower half more effectively, and it may have unlocked further velocity for him. The shoulder issue last season was supposedly due to the high frequency of bullpens he was throwing, and just some inflammation without any actual damage, so with that it appears he has been mostly healthy going all the way back to 2016.

[Ray]

Eno Sarris on our starters. Great article:

 

Vladimir Guerrero Jr. Cavan Biggio. Bo Bichette. Lourdes Gurriel Jr. The future in Toronto seems bright on one side of the ball as the international sons of baseball royalty begin to coalesce their talent. They’ll hit the ball well, and they’re heading for a rousing chorus.

 

So, just as we saw with teams like the Cubs and Astros before them — teams that built formidable young positional cores — this team will go as far as its pitching will take it. After a 2019 season in which they used (you know the number if you’ve been reading Kaitlyn McGrath) a whopping 21 starting pitchers, the Jays made it a priority to find some starters.

 

Talk to the group of newcomers and a theme emerges. That theme could be a temporary adjustment to the market — just a note, not a full song — but if the Blue Jays are lucky, it’ll grow as the youth is mixed in, providing hope for a team that hums on all fronts like an orchestra heading for the crescendo.

 

Setting the tone for the band is the lead singer, camp rock star Hyun-Jin Ryu. Though he doesn’t throw really hard, Ryu commands many pitches well. In fact, he’s in a small group of five-pitch pitchers that will throw any pitch in any count. Only 12 pitchers threw five or more pitches more than 10 percent of the time last year, and if you sort by their command numbers (using Command+), the top five include two familiar names.

 

Name | Team | swSTR | Command+

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Hyun-Jin Ryu | Dodgers | 12% | 112

Kyle Gibson | Twins | 14% | 110

Noah Syndergaard | Mets | 12% | 107

Tanner Roark . | Reds | 9% | 106

Merrill Kelly | D-Backs | 9% | 106

 

Oh, Tanner Roark, eh?

 

“I have to keep the hitter not knowing what’s coming,” Roark said in camp last week. “I can throw a lefty three different pitches up here that all move in different moves. The more things they have to worry about.”

 

There’s evidence that just adding one pitch — no matter how good the pitch or how well you can command it — can help you get through the lineup one more time, and so it’s not surprising that despite below-average fastball velocities, Roark and Ryu have been able to follow this path to starterdom. Add in new research just this week about the value of command, and slider command in particular, and you have another view into the unique strengths of this duo at the top of the rotation. Roark has a 118 slider Command+ (sixth among starters) and Ryu’s 106 cutter Command+ speaks to his ability to place that pitch well.

 

That doesn’t mean there aren’t some wrinkles left in the tank. Roark learned a new changeup grip from Athletics pitching coach Scott Emerson while he was there, and developing that pitch could be a big deal, as he’s been using it less over his career.

 

“I love the action on that pitch now,” Roark acknowledged. “It’s tunneling, looks fine, and then it boom, opens the parachute and it’s 12 mph slower. If I get them geared up to hit the fastball, I can throw it even in their happy zone and they’ll miss it.”

 

 

Roark dropped a tick and a half of velocity from the changeup over the course of the year, and he got more whiffs on the pitch in September than any other month of the year.

 

Teammate Chase Anderson came over from the Brewers, where he also threw five pitches regularly and where he also found a couple of tweaks late in the year that could provide dividends for the Blue Jays.

 

“I looked at the analytics last year, but the cutter is going to become a better third pitch for me,” Anderson told me in camp this week. “In the second half last year, it was spinning good, like 2,300-2,400 RPM, and was getting some good swings and misses and chases. I just tinkered with the grip a little bit and try to think fastball release on it.”

 

Anderson’s whiff rate on the cutter in August was the best of his career, and the second half was his best stretch with the pitch. For someone who has always had reverse splits because of his excellent change, a hard breaking pitch could be huge, especially since Anderson likes to play up in the zone with his riding four-seamer. A high-spin pitch that looks like his four-seamer but doesn’t convert as much spin into movement could be effective like it was late in the season against Eddie Rosario:

 

The changeup artist also went to work on his curve, just in case.

 

“I went to a spike grip on the curveball because it creates the tension you need to create the spin and put it in the right direction,” Anderson said of his curve. “It used to pop out early, and people could see it early. I watched it the other day on the slow-motion video; they all have the right action — 1 to 7 or even 12 to 6 — without popping. I just really try to keep my wrist stiff and try not to be too early with it. I want to see it break and stay on it as long as possible.”

 

Last year, Anderson’s spin efficiency on the curve was only 78 percent, while his fastball was 98 percent. Maybe he could improve that first number.

 

“I learned that spin rate is great but spin efficiency is more important,” agreed Anderson.

 

These queues could up the efficiency, create more movement without the “bunny hop” at the beginning that gives it away and together be the key to making the pitch average again, which it hasn’t been since 2017. Even an average curve and cutter would push him a long way toward the five-good-pitches-with-command threshold.

 

One incumbent pitcher hasn’t yet established himself as a member of this club, but a few midseason conversations with Clay Buchholz might have changed Trent Thornton’s entire arsenal.

 

Though Thornton spins his curveball well — his best curves last year approached 3,000 RPM, which would put him in the top 20 in curveball spin rates — he’s struggled to command it early in the count for strikes, so Buchholz told him to vary the grip and create two curveballs.

 

“If I’m throwing my best curveball 0-0, I’m not doing myself any favors because they’re seeing your best pitch early,” said Thornton of the conversation with the veteran starter. “So now I hold that early one deeper in my hand, and instead of being 81-83 mph, it’s 73 or so. The hitter sees a slow pitch and they don’t swing. I’m throwing two curveballs, kind of. I can just flip this one in there, and hitters are either spitting on it or they’re out in front because it’s so slow, kind of like Zack Greinke does. I’m trying to think about setting other pitches up instead of just saying, ‘Here it comes, man,’ and then I’m behind 1-0 and they’ve seen my best curveball.”

 

In September, the swing rate on his curveball went down, his ball rate went down and his strike rate went up. Batters hit .059 on 81 curves, which is cool because he’s throwing two curves now.

 

But breaking balls have been a strength for Thornton, so it was Buchholz’s grips for the sinker (left) and the changeup (right) that might hold the most promise for the righty. They’re rare grips.

 

 

Trent Thornton’s new one-seam fastball (left), curveball (middle) and palmball changeup (right).

 

That’s a one-seam sinker, thrown maybe most famously by Joe Musgrove, Blake Treinen and Marcus Stroman. Oh, right, and Buchholz.

 

“I’ve never been able to get my fastball to sink and fade, so now I’m trying this one-seam fastball too,” Thornton said before showing me the video below.

 

“I’ve never been able to do that in my life.”

 

Lastly, he’s always been searching for a changeup. Buchholz told him to put the ball deep into his hands so that the pads at the base of his fingers gripped the ball. Basically a palmball, which Trevor Hoffman threw and hasn’t been used as often since. Oh, right, and Buchholz threw it.

 

“The velo difference is huge, and for the first time in my life, I’m getting that movement,” Thornton said. “The consistency is what I’m after. I just grip it and rip it like a four-seam fastball.”

 

Before some late-season fluctuation, Thornton had killed almost two ticks off the change and added two inches more drop. In a related matter, he threw 102 changeups after Aug. 1, and not a single one resulted in a hit.

 

We’ll get to see what happens if you take a guy with good velo, good hard breakers and good spin and add a real sinker and changeup and improve the curve. Hey, that sounds like five pitches, and Thornton had about league-average command (99) to boot.

 

Of course, there’s the pitcher in camp who is turning heads, and so far it’s the young guy. And he doesn’t make his bones with command; he’s all about straight fire.

 

Twelve pitches, three strikeouts, 98 mph on the gun. But that doesn’t mean Nate Pearson doesn’t care about having a wide arsenal.

 

“All three of my off-speed pitches have taken a step up, mostly being my slider and changeup,” he said in camp last week. “But I really worked on my curveball this offseason to try to make it more of a common pitch I throw in games, and it’s come a long way.”

 

That process sounded a lot like the process Anderson undertook.

 

“With my curveball, I’m mainly looking for my spin efficiency; the higher the better,” Pearson said. “Right now I’m hovering around 80 percent. I’d like to get to 90 to make it more of an elite pitch. I started out at 50 percent, and so I’m tweaking some grips, and I found a spike grip I like, and it comes off the middle finger better. When I had two fingers on it, my index finger would make it gyro — saw that on the Edgertronic and the Rapsodo.”

 

Pearson also used the tech to work on his changeup, with the goal being to kill the vertical movement so it would pair well with his hard, riding fastball. After cycling through some grips, he found one that worked. But the overall goal was to put pieces around the fastball.

 

“Fastball has always been my best pitch, but when they know it’s your best pitch, they sit on it,” the big righty said. “You need those other pitches to keep them honest.”

 

There are more young pitchers on the way. Pearson shouted out Julian Merryweather and Patrick Murphy, and 19-year-old Simeon Woods-Richardson is getting people excited. But until those pitchers ascend to the big leagues, it’s about this group right now.

 

And this group right now? It’s more of an orchestra than a guitar solo — they’ve got wide arsenals and command.

 

“I like the staff we have because we’re craftsmen,” Roark said. “We have to rely on hitting our spots for our stuff to be nasty and for hitters to be uncomfortable.”

 

That’s going to be a great influence on the kids as they come up, and the organization will infuse those relationships with all the tech and data the pitchers desire.

 

“The more we talk and the more we hang out, the more we know what we’re trying to do,” Roark added.

 

Now we’re talking about making emphatic music that can catch up with the hitters and round out the team. The soloist shredding and the orchestral depth behind rounding it all out. It’s these veterans who will show the team that while big radar numbers are fun, command of a big mix is a great way to have long-term success.

[Spanky99]

Mark Shapiro on Nate Pearson's usage/plan this year...

 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/shapiro-outlines-blue-jays-will-handle-nate-pearson-2020/

[Beans]

[LGBJ29]

[max silver]

 

I wonder what other offers Moustakas had on the table? 4 years and $64 million was pretty crazy given the way players of his ilk had been paid recently.

[glory]

Jays clearly preparing for Vlad to move off 3B. Shaw is like a bootleg version of Moose (assuming he bounces back). Between targeting players who can cover 3B/1B, and Shapiro's recent words that seemed directed at Vlad's weight/conditioning, it's only a matter of time.

[Bobthe4th]

 

That was never going to get it done. They can’t have wanted him that much.

[Bobthe4th]

[Krylian]

Jays aren't really serious yet.

 

We'll see if/when that really ever happens.

Edited March 6, 2020 by Krylian

[Vdubfan]

That was never going to get it done. They can’t have wanted him that much.

 

He's been basically the same player over the last 3 seasons, and he received $16.5M TOTAL via 2 one years deals. It was very fair to assume 3/30 had a chance to get it done.

[Deadpool]

He's been basically the same player over the last 3 seasons, and he received $16.5M TOTAL via 2 one years deals. It was very fair to assume 3/30 had a chance to get it done.

 

It's also very fair to say "We don't feel that he is worth more than 3/30". That's a very defensible position.

[Brownie19]

That was never going to get it done. They can’t have wanted him that much.

 

That's not a fair take.

[Spanky99]

Blue Jays 30 in 30 is on tonight at 7:00 PM EST... on MLBN and MLB.COM... should be a great hour of tv.

[Spanky99]

Blue Jays 30 in 30 is on tonight at 7:00 PM EST... on MLBN and MLB.COM... should be a great hour of tv.

 

This is on... ^^^

[Spanky99]

Anyhow, this was my kids idea lol, just now.

[Beans]

Blue Jays 30 in 30 is on tonight at 7:00 PM EST... on MLBN and MLB.COM... should be a great hour of tv.

 

I'm watching right now... man, Charlie Montoyo looks a lot like Beaker from The Muppet Show.

[Beans]

I'm watching right now... man, Charlie Montoyo looks a lot like Beaker from The Muppet Show.

 

 

The extra skin

on your neck and chin

makes it hard to tell

where your head ends

and your neck begins

[Spanky99]

I'm watching right now... man, Charlie Montoyo looks a lot like Beaker from The Muppet Show.

 

lol... Beaker!!! *crying*