Stroman to the... METS!?

[baseballsss]

This is basically what AA did to Oakland when he got Donaldson ha.

[TheHurl]

s*** trade.

 

And to all the apologists trying to justify this deal:

 

1. An 18 year old prospect should not be the centerpiece of a deal, unless we're talking Griffey level here. The other guy, yeah he's okay. Thornton level. And they gave up Diaz to get him.

 

2. If Stroman is so undervalued as a pitch-to-contact type of guy, then the Jays should have extended him, recognizing market inefficiencies. And this is coming from someone who has been tired of Stroman's antics for longer than most.

 

Atkins' actions here makes me remember again why I was a bully in school. I want to smash his glasses, give him a wedgie and throw him in a locker after this.

 

And you apologists can mark this f***ing post too. If in 2025 this 18 year old wins a Cy Young in his second full season you can come back to this and I will STILL tell you this was a bad trade. If this guy gets this far it'll be on Jays' PD taking him there, not Atkins' trading skills.

 

No surprises that Hurl is working overtime here to defend this trade. He hated AA with a personal passion so it makes sense for him to prop up the next guy. Atkins is undoubtedly below AA now. Still ahead of Ricciardi but only because the verdict is still out on his drafts while we know JP's was dogshit. Then there's Ash which yeah he was a terrible beta male trying to run a team with guys like Gaston, Carter and Clemens steamrolling him and Ken Williams treating him like a patsy, but even HE got Cruz Jr. for relievers.

 

I actually rated the trade a B- i am just talking in extremes the way everyone else does. I don't actually think he has Gore upside...but if he progresses next year he gets the same kind of prospect list love. I hadn't even heard of Sim before this years draft where someone said he would be the first high school pitcher taken if he hadn't fast tracked? If baseball had draft pick trading...and damnit they should this is the equivalent of a 1st round pick from a bottom 10 team

 

Much like you i think a trade for an 18 year old pitcher carries too much risk. His numbers are good. There is zero reason to call this trade a bust at this time. It fits near the Jays timeline and Stroman doesn't until we hear the rumours of other offers we can judge the other offers?

[Laika]

Huh. Anthony Kay and Marcus Stroman are both from Long Island. High schools are a 20 minute drive apart.

[Superdood]

Just the nature of most fans, over reaction to everything after it happens.

 

Give the prospects time to develop, Kay less so but SWR has some really nice upside and by the time this team is supposedly going to be competitive he should be ready to step in assuming he continues to progress well.

 

I do love reading through all the "This deal is s***" comments though, good for a laugh from all the great armchair GM's on this board lol.

[Captain Adama]

This is basically what AA did to Oakland when he got Donaldson ha.

 

Of course, I can totally see how trading away a 3 WAR starter with just over 1 year of control is even similar of trading a 7 WAR position player with 4 years of control.

[flafson]

I don't understand it, at the start of the season, Jays farm was ranked 3rd and Mets farm ranked 23rd by BleacherReport.

Kay and SWR were ranked 6th and 7th there and now that MLB Pipeline updated our ranking they are ranked 5th and 7th in our farm?

[Omar]

I guess gruber was right. Haven't totally lost faith in Atkins yet though. Let's see what he does with Giles.

 

Got a feeling Stro is going to great in the NL.

[jaysguy44]

I don't understand it, at the start of the season, Jays farm was ranked 3rd and Mets farm ranked 23rd by BleacherReport.

Kay and SWR were ranked 6th and 7th there and now that MLB Pipeline updated our ranking they are ranked 5th and 7th in our farm?

 

There's definitely better guys on here to answer that question.

 

But a couple things that stand out there to me.

 

Vladdy and Biggio are no longer prospects.

 

 

The Jays farm system is quite deep, compared to a lot of teams.

 

Again, I'm not the most knowledgeable about our prospects compared to some but that's what first comes to mind.

[flafson]

There's definitely better guys on here to answer that question.

 

But a couple things that stand out there to me.

 

Vladdy and Biggio are no longer prospects.

 

 

The Jays farm system is quite deep, compared to a lot of teams.

 

Again, I'm not the most knowledgeable about our prospects compared to some but that's what first comes to mind.

 

Biggio was never a blue chip prospect as far as I recall, he wasn't very high on many lists until recently.

 

And that's kinda my point exactly, if our farm is deeper than most (3rd compared with 23rd of the Mets) than it stands to reason that their top 10 are more like top 20 for us, so their top 6 and 7 should probably be more around 15ish in our ranking.

 

Unless SWR becomes the next Thor, I kinda feel we got fleeced.

[fireballW]

Yeah. They both give up a lot of hits for the stuff they have though. Hopefully they can take steps forward in our system.

[AintNoThang]

I'm disappointed in this trade, but it seems reasonable considering the new climate in baseball. They aren't offering up top propsects like they did in the past. If you look at top prospects lists, there's a lot of players on teams that weren't agressive to add a starter. Plus, it was rumored that the Braves weren't interested in Stroman. The Twins said they weren't going to trade a top prospect at the moment. San Diego seemed to prefer other starters. And the Yanks weren't offering Garcia. I'd much rather this trade than have Frazier as the main piece. At least the pitchers are intriguing and could take a step forward. The more arms added, the more likely one could succeed. Would love a couple more interesting arms for Giles.

[P2F]

Marcus Stroman Trade Reaction + Bo Bichette Promotion

 

https://radioscouts.buzzsprout.com/200570/1471033-episode-27-marcus-stroman-trade-reaction-bo-bichette-promotion

[Bobthe4th]

Ok what the f*** are the Mets doing?

[Bobthe4th]

An 18 year old pitcher and a projected back of the rotation starter is disappointing. Atkins needs to hit a home run with the Giles trade or he should be fired in the summer.

[Spanky99]

The only reason I can think of Stroman being upset is because if he was going to get traded he probably expected to pitch in the playoffs. But hes going to another dog s*** team instead.

 

This.

[Spanky99]

This is an underwhelming return, was expecting much better, SWR looks to be a very good spect, but Kay? Meh, I guess there's upside, but f*** this trade. Atkins you failed spectacularly, imo. Ughhh...

[Spanky99]

It does feel kinda gross but I try to keep in mind that our front office has an excellent track record of identifying high level pitching talent - Kluber, Bauer, Carrasco, Clevinger, Bieber, etc.

 

Yeah, here's to hoping. Geez...

[Spanky99]

So where do Kay and SWR slot into the Jays ranking now?

 

5 and 7

 

http://m.mlb.com/prospects/2019?list=tor

[Captain Adama]

I guess gruber was right. Haven't totally lost faith in Atkins yet though. Let's see what he does with Giles.

 

Got a feeling Stro is going to great in the NL.

 

This is never the case.

[P2F]

http://mkjon.es/gifs/facepalm_jack_nickelson.gif

 

Me, reading one horrific take after another in this thread.

 

 

 

A trade doesn't have to be a win or a loss, guys. And in this case, the Jays made out fine. Sim is about as good of a pitching prospect as there is below AA. He possesses premium velocity with multiple plus secondaries. He has the size (currently 6'3"/210 lbs.) and is still only 18. By the way, he has absolutely dominated A level ball in a way that very few pitchers have in the past 15 years. This is comparable to getting a Deivi Garcia or Luis Patino at the same level, and he probably ascends the minors more quickly than expected. He could be contributing at some point late in 2021 or, perhaps more likely, by mid-2022.

 

Anthony Kay has some good stuff, too. He's basically big-league ready now, as you can just throw AAA numbers right out the f***ing window, thanks to the ball change they made this year. His ceiling might be a #3, though he's more likely a backend/depth guy, or maybe he thrives in a relief role. The curveball/fastball combo here is pretty bonkers, though. If he can find his changeup again, maybe he could become that mid-rotation starter.

 

It's not a great trade and it's not an awful trade - it's somewhere in between that. Personally, I'd probably rank it about a B-.

 

Can we at least wait to see how the rest of the deadline deals play out before we call for Atkins' head?

[Captain Adama]

http://mkjon.es/gifs/facepalm_jack_nickelson.gif

 

Me, reading one horrific take after another in this thread.

 

 

 

A trade doesn't have to be a win or a loss, guys. And in this case, the Jays made out fine. Sim is about as good of a pitching prospect as there is below AA. He possesses premium velocity with multiple plus secondaries. He has the size (currently 6'3"/210 lbs.) and is still only 18. By the way, he has absolutely dominated A level ball in a way that very few pitchers have in the past 15 years. This is comparable to getting a Deivi Garcia or Luis Patino at the same level, and he probably ascends the minors more quickly than expected. He could be contributing at some point late in 2021 or, perhaps more likely, by mid-2022.

 

Anthony Kay has some good stuff, too. He's basically big-league ready now, as you can just throw AAA numbers right out the f***ing window, thanks to the ball change they made this year. His ceiling might be a #3, though he's more likely a backend/depth guy, or maybe he thrives in a relief role. The curveball/fastball combo here is pretty bonkers, though. If he can find his changeup again, maybe he could become that mid-rotation starter.

 

Can we at least wait to see how the rest of the deadline deals play out before we call for Atkins' head?

 

Great take, I wanted to add, that multiple posters last year really wanted Garcia last year for Happ. Robinson has better stats than Garcia did at the same level and age. After the post trade emotions, Robinson is a great centrepiece IMO. Syndergaard 2.0

 

Despite that the deal feels underwhelming, Stroman is a lot better than Happ and has the extra year of control. An extension is out of the question cause both sides clearly hate each other.

[JaysAllMighty]

So happy showboat all about himself Stro is gone with a decent return. He's a cancer to front offices. His big mouth got him what he deserves.

[Spanky99]

http://mkjon.es/gifs/facepalm_jack_nickelson.gif

 

Me, reading one horrific take after another in this thread.

 

 

 

A trade doesn't have to be a win or a loss, guys. And in this case, the Jays made out fine. Sim is about as good of a pitching prospect as there is below AA. He possesses premium velocity with multiple plus secondaries. He has the size (currently 6'3"/210 lbs.) and is still only 18. By the way, he has absolutely dominated A level ball in a way that very few pitchers have in the past 15 years. This is comparable to getting a Deivi Garcia or Luis Patino at the same level, and he probably ascends the minors more quickly than expected. He could be contributing at some point late in 2021 or, perhaps more likely, by mid-2022.

 

Anthony Kay has some good stuff, too. He's basically big-league ready now, as you can just throw AAA numbers right out the f***ing window, thanks to the ball change they made this year. His ceiling might be a #3, though he's more likely a backend/depth guy, or maybe he thrives in a relief role. The curveball/fastball combo here is pretty bonkers, though. If he can find his changeup again, maybe he could become that mid-rotation starter.

 

It's not a great trade and it's not an awful trade - it's somewhere in between that. Personally, I'd probably rank it about a B-.

 

Can we at least wait to see how the rest of the deadline deals play out before we call for Atkins' head?

 

That's fair, I was expecting more, Toronto's even sending cash, hopefully it works out. You've let me feel a bit better on Kay, the upcoming returns throughout the deadline would certainly be a good barometer on this deal and market. Apparently my expectations were too high, I guess.

[The Cats Ass]

I actually like this trade. SWR should rank above Pardinho though I feel, he's a stud. These 2 are the two youngest pitchers currently in A-Ball, but SWR has been putting up far and away the better numbers. He's currently leading the league in xFIP. Could easily see this guy pitching in the majors in 2021 when he's 20. Mets just paid us back for sending them Syndergaard in the Dickey trade.

[fireballW]

http://mkjon.es/gifs/facepalm_jack_nickelson.gif

 

Me, reading one horrific take after another in this thread.

 

 

 

A trade doesn't have to be a win or a loss, guys. And in this case, the Jays made out fine. Sim is about as good of a pitching prospect as there is below AA. He possesses premium velocity with multiple plus secondaries. He has the size (currently 6'3"/210 lbs.) and is still only 18. By the way, he has absolutely dominated A level ball in a way that very few pitchers have in the past 15 years. This is comparable to getting a Deivi Garcia or Luis Patino at the same level, and he probably ascends the minors more quickly than expected. He could be contributing at some point late in 2021 or, perhaps more likely, by mid-2022.

 

Anthony Kay has some good stuff, too. He's basically big-league ready now, as you can just throw AAA numbers right out the f***ing window, thanks to the ball change they made this year. His ceiling might be a #3, though he's more likely a backend/depth guy, or maybe he thrives in a relief role. The curveball/fastball combo here is pretty bonkers, though. If he can find his changeup again, maybe he could become that mid-rotation starter.

 

It's not a great trade and it's not an awful trade - it's somewhere in between that. Personally, I'd probably rank it about a B-.

 

Can we at least wait to see how the rest of the deadline deals play out before we call for Atkins' head?

 

I think after the initial shock people calmed down a bit. The reaction right off the bat was pretty fair. Fans here are probably more informed than most, but we aren't scouts. Expecting at least one high end prospect and then getting two pitching prospects who weren't even ranked that high in a pedestrian farm system like the Mets' is obviously going to put a sour taste in most fans' mouths.

 

People understand Sim could be great, but just because he has the same upside as other top prospects doesn't mean everyone should be happy. There are probably pitchers in every farm system we could talk ourselves into getting excited about, but it doesn't make them outstanding trade targets for Stroman. Sim may look comparable to past Garcia, and might have the same upside, but he hasn't cleared as many hurdles yet and that counts for a lot as far as value is concerned.

 

I've already convinced myself everything could work out great. Kay has some nasty pitches and I'm intrigued at what he might be able to do. I'd still give the trade less than a B- though for sure and don't blame people for their knee jerk reactions.

[Bobthe4th]

http://mkjon.es/gifs/facepalm_jack_nickelson.gif

 

Me, reading one horrific take after another in this thread.

 

 

 

A trade doesn't have to be a win or a loss, guys. And in this case, the Jays made out fine. Sim is about as good of a pitching prospect as there is below AA. He possesses premium velocity with multiple plus secondaries. He has the size (currently 6'3"/210 lbs.) and is still only 18. By the way, he has absolutely dominated A level ball in a way that very few pitchers have in the past 15 years. This is comparable to getting a Deivi Garcia or Luis Patino at the same level, and he probably ascends the minors more quickly than expected. He could be contributing at some point late in 2021 or, perhaps more likely, by mid-2022.

 

Anthony Kay has some good stuff, too. He's basically big-league ready now, as you can just throw AAA numbers right out the f***ing window, thanks to the ball change they made this year. His ceiling might be a #3, though he's more likely a backend/depth guy, or maybe he thrives in a relief role. The curveball/fastball combo here is pretty bonkers, though. If he can find his changeup again, maybe he could become that mid-rotation starter.

 

It's not a great trade and it's not an awful trade - it's somewhere in between that. Personally, I'd probably rank it about a B-.

 

Can we at least wait to see how the rest of the deadline deals play out before we call for Atkins' head?

 

The fact that it isn't a great trade, in the circumstances (i.e. arguably the best available pitcher in a seller's market with a few days left in the window for desperate teams to up their offers, plus potentially revisiting offers in the summer) means that people are going to be pissed off. If they get an underwhelming return for Giles then this trade deadline is a disaster. If they get a decent return then that makes this deal much more acceptable IMO.

[Brownie19]

The Cole trade landed a really solid big leaguer in Joe Musgrove, although I do agree that the return was light.

 

Dustin Fowler was also top 100 in the Gray trade.

 

Matt Moore was a total mess at the time of the trade. I don't think he had the value of Stroman but feel free to debate this. Matt Duffy was also a solid big leaguer as well.

 

Mike Fiers was part of a larger deal that had at least one or two top 100 guys in Phillips and Santana.

 

David Price went for a really solid big league pitcher in Drew Smyly.

 

I think he's talking Sonny Gray to the Reds....more control than Stroman, similar track record (maybe a little less)

[Brownie19]

Expected overreaction.

 

What I like - Jays got the best 18 year pitcher in the world. If he was in this years draft he'd have been top 10.

What I don't like. The best player in the deal is 18.

 

Kay is what you see. A power lefty that shows flashes of mid rotation and flashes of failed reliever. He's a lefty who's ready and has low mileage on the arm though. That has some value. He's another one of those 2 to 4 inning guys who the Jays seem to be stocking up on but have shown no thoughts of building that way

 

Not that I really question Hurl, but is this true? That's a pretty easy way to sell this trade to the fans...

[Barkerfan23]

I am coming around to the return based on the analysis of Richardson offered here. I still feel s***** about the trade, but I think I would feel shittier if it was the same return to the Yankees

 

So thank you guys for making me feel at least a little better.

[Brownie19]

This is basically what AA did to Oakland when he got Donaldson ha.

 

Of course, I can totally see how trading away a 3 WAR starter with just over 1 year of control is even similar of trading a 7 WAR position player with 4 years of control.