Charlie Montoyo Egregious Mistake Tracking Thread

[Daniel Labude]

 

Front office now throwing Montoyo under the bus lol

[L54]

Atkins is 100% going to trade Stroman and Giles. He better fit a f'n grand slam in the return for those two. THis is probably the least interested I have been in the Jays for a long time. The roster sucks, the front office hasn't established itself as one we can trust (Atkins), and even looking forward to the trade deadline is a bit of a letdown when we have two years of sample size that show Teoscar, McKinney, Drury, Wall, Paulino, Perez, Waguespack, etc.

 

I'll base a lot of this season off of what happens at the deadline. If they're dead set on moving Giles and Stroman then the returns better be good because those are the only two guys on the 25 man at this point who are even worthy of returning calls on.

 

I'd love to see them get creative and take on a bad contract to land a big league piece. I have no idea from who, but that's not my job. If we go into 2020 without Stroman and a bunch of Thornton/Borucki types I will not be impressed.

[L54]

 

Front office now throwing Montoyo under the bus lol

 

It could very well be true. I don't think they instructed him to sit Vladdy, but they should've been keen enough to make sure he was in the lineup returning from a road trip on a holiday Monday.

[Ex Player]

What aboot the batting coach?? Right now Jays are 27 out of 30

 

http://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/team/_/stat/batting

[L54]

What aboot the batting coach?? Right now Jays are 27 out of 30

 

http://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/team/_/stat/batting

 

Correlation is not causation. The team is awful, it's not Martinez's fault. He came to the org has a highly regarded coach too.

[Spanky99]

 

Front office now throwing Montoyo under the bus lol

 

It's getting funnier by the minute!

[DigitalRock]

Jays look incompetent...but how about Batting Davis Lead-off? Is Montoyo doing it because he is a fast black dude? Does that make him racist?

[L54]

Jays look incompetent...but how about Batting Davis Lead-off? Is Montoyo doing it because he is a fast black dude? Does that make him racist?

 

Yes against white players like Billy McKinney and Eric Sogard

[Ray]

Atkins has swung and missed on almost every important young player acquisition he's made aside from Thornton so far. Even a good player like Grichuk was signed to an extension he probably didn't deserve and may not be able to live up to. We see players like Biggio dominate the upper minors, but can't get called up presumably for super 2 reasons, even though who bloody cares if there's an extra year of arb when you have no financial commitments beyond 2020 anyway?

 

Atkins is 100% going to trade Stroman and Giles. He better fit a f'n grand slam in the return for those two. THis is probably the least interested I have been in the Jays for a long time. The roster sucks, the front office hasn't established itself as one we can trust (Atkins), and even looking forward to the trade deadline is a bit of a letdown when we have two years of sample size that show Teoscar, McKinney, Drury, Wall, Paulino, Perez, Waguespack, etc.

 

This might be because our biggest assets so far have been:

 

1. Half a season of a 34 year old JA Happ with a 4 ERA

2. Roberto Osuna coming off a domestic violence issue

3. Half a season of near 6 ERA Francisco Liriano

4. A minor leaguer who couldn't throw strikes, and a reliever coming off a career year.

 

You can argue that the returns have been underwhelming, but it's not like they were unloading young controllable pieces here (besides Osuna who had his own issues).

[FrozenRopes]

Montoyo should be replaced. He is in over his head. It is obvious. Why it won't happen is because pride will keep the management staff from seeing their mistake, and they won't admit making said mistake.

 

He seems like a good bench guy, but he should not be puppeteering this team, especially with VGJ, Bo and others coming along.

 

Schneider maybe? Girardi?

[Ex Player]

Montoyo should be replaced. He is in over his head. It is obvious. Why it won't happen is because pride will keep the management staff from seeing their mistake, and they won't admit making said mistake

He's on a 3-year contract. This team sucks so bad that it wont matter if he stays on for next year or the year after.

 

Its Shatkins who needs to look for another job if this rebuild doesnt pick up steam soon enough

[Spanky99]

He's on a 3-year contract. This team sucks so bad that it wont matter if he stays on for next year or the year after.

 

Its Shatkins who needs to look for another job if this rebuild doesnt pick up steam soon enough

 

What's soon?

[Ex Player]

What's soon?

It aint gonna happen this year, so if there's no gradual (or drastic) improvement over the next 2 years he needs to go.

 

I can almost guarantee you he has no clue whats going on, so he most likely needs to go by 2021

[Ex Player]

I also wanna add Jays have a ton of very young players. These guys will need a few years to develop.

And on top of that, there's no guarantee any (or all) of them will ever develop into solid MLB players.

 

I'm mainly talking about Vlad, Jansen, Tellez, Grichuk........and a few others

[Spanky99]

It aint gonna happen this year, so if there's no gradual (or drastic) improvement over the next 2 years he needs to go.

 

I can almost guarantee you he has no clue whats going on, so he most likely needs to go by 2021

 

You can guarantee me he has no clue, lol.

[Carlos Danger]

Jays look incompetent...but how about Batting Davis Lead-off? Is Montoyo doing it because he is a fast black dude? Does that make him racist?

 

We just don't have any fast white guys...

[Deadpool]

We just don't have any fast white guys...

 

We don't have any plausible leadoff guys. I mean, Smoak is the only one with a decent OBP, but he's fine in the 3 hole. We just don't have enough guys getting on base right now.

[Brownie19]

 

Atkins has swung and missed on almost every important young player acquisition he's made aside from Thornton so far. Even a good player like Grichuk was signed to an extension he probably didn't deserve and may not be able to live up to. We see players like Biggio dominate the upper minors, but can't get called up presumably for super 2 reasons, even though who bloody cares if there's an extra year of arb when you have no financial commitments beyond 2020 anyway?

 

 

What is this nonsense? Let's break it down.

 

Good:

Woodman for A.Diaz trade

A.Diaz for Thornton trade

Dominic Leone & Conner Greene for Grichuk

Pillar for Hansen, Law & Juan De Paula (Pillar's been worth -0.1 WAR for the Giants, while Law's been worth 0.2 WAR for the Jays. Pillar sucks)

 

Bad:

Happ for Drury & McKinney

Liriano for Teoscar

Rodrigo Orozco for Socrates Brito

 

Inconclusive:

Oh for Spanberger & Wall

Loup for Jacob Waguespack

Martin for Andrew Sopko and Ronny Brito

JD for Merryweather

 

You're going to rip Atkins for the return they got when trading key assets such as Liriano, Rodrigo Orozco and a 1/8 of a season of Happ? C'mon man.

 

I mean f***...even if all the trades under "inconclusive" fail (which most of them will) - there's been no value or assets traded away outside of an 1/8 of a season of JD and Happ. When you factor in that we ended up with Grichuk and Thornton for NOTHING - I find it pretty hard to rip Atkins.

 

Let's wait until they actually have assets before we rip what they are getting in return for them. The cupboards were f***ing bare here when they arrived.

 

I feel like this is the 3rd time I've had to explain this.

[Grant77]

What is this nonsense? Let's break it down.

 

Good:

Woodman for A.Diaz trade

A.Diaz for Thornton trade

Dominic Leone & Conner Greene for Grichuk

Pillar for Hansen, Law & Juan De Paula (Pillar's been worth -0.1 WAR for the Giants, while Law's been worth 0.2 WAR for the Jays. Pillar sucks)

 

Bad:

Happ for Drury & McKinney

Liriano for Teoscar

Rodrigo Orozco for Socrates Brito

 

Inconclusive:

Oh for Spanberger & Wall

Loup for Jacob Waguespack

Martin for Andrew Sopko and Ronny Brito

JD for Merryweather

 

You're going to rip Atkins for the return they got when trading key assets such as Liriano, Rodrigo Orozco and a 1/8 of a season of Happ? C'mon man.

 

I mean f***...even if all the trades under "inconclusive" fail (which most of them will) - there's been no value or assets traded away outside of an 1/8 of a season of JD and Happ. When you factor in that we ended up with Grichuk and Thornton for NOTHING - I find it pretty hard to rip Atkins.

 

Let's wait until they actually have assets before we rip what they are getting in return for them. The cupboards were f***ing bare here when they arrived.

 

I feel like this is the 3rd time I've had to explain this.

 

To put the Pillar trade into the good category is questionable. He had some real trade value and also had value to the current club. Trading him for absolutely nothing isn't terrible, but it isn't good by any stretch of the imagination.

[Spanky99]

 

I feel like this is the 3rd time I've had to explain this.

 

This, is true!

[Spanky99]

To put the Pillar trade into the good category is questionable. He had some real trade value and also had value to the current club. Trading him for absolutely nothing isn't terrible, but it isn't good by any stretch of the imagination.

 

Now, what would Grant haul back for Spidey?

[BlueRocky]

Osuna (tanking his own value) for Giles, Paulino, and Perez was also a pretty good move especially if Giles gets flipped again and Perez becomes anything at all.

 

If Sopko is a even half decent the Martin trade will turn out great factoring in the idea was to open playing time for Jansen.

 

Pearce for Santiago Espinal trade was basically a win for both sides, considering his injury history and Espinal is not a bad lottery ticket.

 

Axford for Copping was basically a free asset.

 

Granderson for Demi Orimoloye was another lotto ticket swap.

 

Also this is not a direct trade acquisition, but letting Encarnacion walk and drafting Nate Pearson and convincing Bichette to sign with us might be the biggest supporting moves to the Vladdy era that took years to pay off.

Edited May 22, 2019 by BlueRocky

[Ex Player]

Osuna is putting up some sick numbers with the Stros

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/o/osunaro01.shtml

 

Too bad he had to beat his wife

[glory]

This might be because our biggest assets so far have been:

 

1. Half a season of a 34 year old JA Happ with a 4 ERA

2. Roberto Osuna coming off a domestic violence issue

3. Half a season of near 6 ERA Francisco Liriano

4. A minor leaguer who couldn't throw strikes, and a reliever coming off a career year.

 

You can argue that the returns have been underwhelming, but it's not like they were unloading young controllable pieces here (besides Osuna who had his own issues).

 

Osuna trade was good especially considering the circumstances, plus Giles can be flipped for better prospects. Both Diaz deals were good. Grichuk deal was good but made worse by the unnecessary extension.

 

However, the rest of the deals ranged from inconsequential to trash. I mean, yeah, for a s***** Liriano we got a better prospect than we probably should have, but that doesn’t mean it was a good prospect. Hernandez has been bad and he’s old for a prospect now. The Happ trade sucked from day 1. Solarte sucked (Olivares might be something better than filler). We got bodies for some expiring vets but nothing beyond depth pieces. Pillar was dumped and we somehow got the worse end of that because the players we got back suck and we don’t even have a CF to replace him (Grichuk is better off in right).

 

Like I said maybe he hits a home run with Stroman and Giles (and Sanchez if he stays healthy), but if he doesn’t, then it’s just more bad to stack to the pile.

 

I actually don’t mind acquiring fringe type prospects and giving them a chance to play but Atkins is like 0 for infinity in actually acquiring an undervalued player and having them improve. If anything Grichuk is the same dude he’s always been and that’s one of Atkins’ best moves. If Paulino becomes a good reliever, and Drury becomes a starting infielder, etc, then we can start talking. But so far there’s been no development, while the Yankees can pluck guys from the minors and watch them succeed. Jays need to be better.

[Ray]

However, the rest of the deals ranged from inconsequential to trash. I mean, yeah, for a s***** Liriano we got a better prospect than we probably should have, but that doesn’t mean it was a good prospect. Hernandez has been bad and he’s old for a prospect now. The Happ trade sucked from day 1. Solarte sucked (Olivares might be something better than filler). We got bodies for some expiring vets but nothing beyond depth pieces. Pillar was dumped and we somehow got the worse end of that because the players we got back suck and we don’t even have a CF to replace him (Grichuk is better off in right).

 

Like I said maybe he hits a home run with Stroman and Giles (and Sanchez if he stays healthy), but if he doesn’t, then it’s just more bad to stack to the pile.

 

I actually don’t mind acquiring fringe type prospects and giving them a chance to play but Atkins is like 0 for infinity in actually acquiring an undervalued player and having them improve. If anything Grichuk is the same dude he’s always been and that’s one of Atkins’ best moves. If Paulino becomes a good reliever, and Drury becomes a starting infielder, etc, then we can start talking. But so far there’s been no development, while the Yankees can pluck guys from the minors and watch them succeed. Jays need to be better.

 

The best you could've hoped for in trading Liriano is someone interesting, and at that point, Teoscar Hernandez was a 24 year old putting up a .865 OPS in AAA. We even ate Liriano's entire salary to maximize the return. For all intents and purposes, we did much better than we should've in that trade. It looks bad in hindsight, but that doesn't mean it was a bad trade at the time.

 

Speaking of Liriano, we also ended up getting him + Reese McGuire + Harold Ramirez for Drew Hutchison. We bought low on Liriano when he was putting up a 5.46 ERA, and he ended up being pretty crucial down the stretch in that 2016 playoff run. And we still ended up getting McGuire on top of that. I would classify that as acquiring an undervalued player and helping them improve.

 

Furthermore, if you want to point at the Yankees, one example of them turning around a player markedly is Aaron Hicks. He didn't break out until age 27 after previously posting 1300 plate appearances of a 77 OPS+. Tesocar Hernandez, Brandon Drury, Billy McKinney, are all younger than that and have already been better hitters than he was at that point. It's easy to criticize all the bad things about a player because it can be done instantaneously, whereas improvement and development happens over time and is harder to see. Let's at least give some of these guys more rope before writing them off.

[glory]

The best you could've hoped for in trading Liriano is someone interesting, and at that point, Teoscar Hernandez was a 24 year old putting up a .865 OPS in AAA. We even ate Liriano's entire salary to maximize the return. For all intents and purposes, we did much better than we should've in that trade. It looks bad in hindsight, but that doesn't mean it was a bad trade at the time.

 

Speaking of Liriano, we also ended up getting him + Reese McGuire + Harold Ramirez for Drew Hutchison. We bought low on Liriano when he was putting up a 5.46 ERA, and he ended up being pretty crucial down the stretch in that 2016 playoff run. And we still ended up getting McGuire on top of that. I would classify that as acquiring an undervalued player and helping them improve.

 

Furthermore, if you want to point at the Yankees, one example of them turning around a player markedly is Aaron Hicks. He didn't break out until age 27 after previously posting 1300 plate appearances of a 77 OPS+. Tesocar Hernandez, Brandon Drury, Billy McKinney, are all younger than that and have already been better hitters than he was at that point. It's easy to criticize all the bad things about a player because it can be done instantaneously, whereas improvement and development happens over time and is harder to see. Let's at least give some of these guys more rope before writing them off.

 

Sure that's why I said as of now Atkins is not doing well. If suddenly the players he acquired take giant steps forward, then my opinion of him will change. I hope it does. Right now the only thing I have confidence in is the drafting and international signings.

[P2F]

Osuna is putting up some sick numbers with the Stros

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/o/osunaro01.shtml

 

Too bad he had to beat his wife

 

Giles is better and saves his beatings for himself.

[Grant77]

Now, what would Grant haul back for Spidey?

 

I probably would have kept him until we had another capable outfielder in the organization. At that point, I would have prioritized a real prospect over guys like Law and Hansen.

[Brownie19]

To put the Pillar trade into the good category is questionable. He had some real trade value and also had value to the current club. Trading him for absolutely nothing isn't terrible, but it isn't good by any stretch of the imagination.

 

Grant - that was meant to be a bit of a joke.....although Law's been better for us than Pillar's been for SF. You have no idea if he had 'real' trade value. No idea why you'd suggest that. For those suggesting he had value to the current club. I can buy that to some extent (fans love him)...but let's be honest, he's posting a -0.4 WAR through the first quarter of this year. He hasn't actually provided value to anyone this season. I'm sure it won't end this bad/quickly for Pillar, but he's probably looking at a 1.0 WAR season at best.

[BTS]

Giles is better and saves his beatings for himself.

 

Yeah, the Osuna trade was one of Atkins' best moves as GM. He's every bit as good as Osuna, and they also picked up two other interesting arms with 6 years of control each. The deal was a coup given that Osuna carries huge baggage.