General 2019 Blue Jays Discussion Thread

[Orgfiller]

If Fisher is anything more than AAAA guy or decent 4th OF option I would be pleasantly surprised. Not expecting much of anything. Its hard to see him playing everyday because whose at-bats is he taking. Teo looks like he was starting to turn it around and we unfortunately have to play Grichuk because he got paid. For now he can get some at-bats with LGJ and Grichuk potentially out with minor injuries.

 

They'll just cycle Teoscar, Grichuk and Fisher through 2 OF positions and the DH, plenty to make them play at least 2 or 3 games in a row before sitting, that's basically playing full time.

[SAAviour]

Mannnn people just do not realize how special the Blue Jays' core of position players is for this point in the rebuild.

 

In 2018 the team was at least half-heartedly trying to compete. The pure rebuild wasn't initiated until mid-2018.

 

Now, mid-2019, ONE YEAR LATER, the MLB roster has Vlad, Bo, Biggio, Gurriel, and Jansen. These guys have accumulated ~5 WAR in less than 1200 combined PA. In other words, they average out to be league average bats or better, as babies/rookies (crazy).

 

This is the most accelerated rebuild one could imagine. And that core is surrounded predominately by cheap-as-hell players in their 20s, some of which have upside.

 

Blue Jays fans should be leaving offerings at the Rogers Centre to appease their gods and saviors, Shapiro and Atkins.

 

I agree. We are miles ahead of teams like Baltimore and KC in their rebuilds.

Credit to Atkins for not trading away any minor leaguers the last few years.

[dineke]

Mannnn people just do not realize how special the Blue Jays' core of position players is for this point in the rebuild.

 

In 2018 the team was at least half-heartedly trying to compete. The pure rebuild wasn't initiated until mid-2018.

 

Now, mid-2019, ONE YEAR LATER, the MLB roster has Vlad, Bo, Biggio, Gurriel, and Jansen. These guys have accumulated ~5 WAR in less than 1200 combined PA. In other words, they average out to be league average bats or better, as babies/rookies (crazy).

 

This is the most accelerated rebuild one could imagine. And that core is surrounded predominately by cheap-as-hell players in their 20s, some of which have upside.

 

Blue Jays fans should be leaving offerings at the Rogers Centre to appease their gods and saviors, Shapiro and Atkins.

 

Toronto fans are fickle as f***. The were dumping on Masai last offseason. If this team is kicking ass in 2 years they'll be building their statues.

[Krylian]

Toronto fans are fickle as f***. The were dumping on Masai last offseason. If this team is kicking ass in 2 years they'll be building their statues.

 

To be fair, a lot of the Masai frustration was cause he was sitting with Lowry and Derozan year after year and the fanbase was ready to move on from at least one of them.

[glory]

Mannnn people just do not realize how special the Blue Jays' core of position players is for this point in the rebuild.

 

In 2018 the team was at least half-heartedly trying to compete. The pure rebuild wasn't initiated until mid-2018.

 

Now, mid-2019, ONE YEAR LATER, the MLB roster has Vlad, Bo, Biggio, Gurriel, and Jansen. These guys have accumulated ~5 WAR in less than 1200 combined PA. In other words, they average out to be league average bats or better, as babies/rookies (crazy).

 

This is the most accelerated rebuild one could imagine. And that core is surrounded predominately by cheap-as-hell players in their 20s, some of which have upside.

 

Blue Jays fans should be leaving offerings at the Rogers Centre to appease their gods and saviors, Shapiro and Atkins.

 

The rebuild began in 2016, it was just done behind the veil of "wanting to contend" to sell tickets and capitalize off the ALCS success. Shatkins to their credit never touched the prospect base and continually tried to add to it even when they were contending (the first Liriano trade), that's why the team is in such good shape despite not doing a true rebuild until a year ago. The only real negative is that we should be even better than we are now if JD/Happ was traded sooner, Osuna didn't have the legal issues, etc, etc. Some of it bad timing, some of it bad luck, but regardless still a pretty decent spot to be in all things considered.

[Brownie19]

The rebuild began in 2016, it was just done behind the veil of "wanting to contend" to sell tickets and capitalize off the ALCS success. Shatkins to their credit never touched the prospect base and continually tried to add to it even when they were contending (the first Liriano trade), that's why the team is in such good shape despite not doing a true rebuild until a year ago. The only real negative is that we should be even better than we are now if JD/Happ was traded sooner, Osuna didn't have the legal issues, etc, etc. Some of it bad timing, some of it bad luck, but regardless still a pretty decent spot to be in all things considered.

 

glory - repeat this point until the cows come home. It's spot on.

[Laika]

The rebuild began in 2016, it was just done behind the veil of "wanting to contend" to sell tickets and capitalize off the ALCS success. Shatkins to their credit never touched the prospect base and continually tried to add to it even when they were contending (the first Liriano trade), that's why the team is in such good shape despite not doing a true rebuild until a year ago. The only real negative is that we should be even better than we are now if JD/Happ was traded sooner, Osuna didn't have the legal issues, etc, etc. Some of it bad timing, some of it bad luck, but regardless still a pretty decent spot to be in all things considered.

 

It's largely semantics but I don't agree.

 

It's too cynical to say that wanting to contend was just a veil / smoke-screen. They had a period where they were one toe in the rebuild waters, one toe in the trying to compete waters. They probably thought they had some percentage chance to make the playoffs.

 

Look at the recent moved by the front office. I don't think they care too much about optics.

[Thaddeus Malice]

I agree with a lot of the above. The execution when it comes to turning assets into better value has not been good. We've waited too long to move some pieces and the moves we have made haven't panned out.

 

Drury and Mckinney suck let's be honest. They were both older goes, and it looks bad on the FO's ability to evaluate talent that they didn't see these two as being useless. So at this point I'm not super hopeful on the Fisher or Kay pieces. SWR looks interesting at least.

[Brownie19]

I agree with a lot of the above. The execution when it comes to turning assets into better value has not been good. We've waited too long to move some pieces and the moves we have made haven't panned out.

 

Drury and Mckinney suck let's be honest. They were both older goes, and it looks bad on the FO's ability to evaluate talent that they didn't see these two as being useless. So at this point I'm not super hopeful on the Fisher or Kay pieces. SWR looks interesting at least.

 

Cite the case that illustrates better value was available. It's all relative man. Look at the deals made in 2018 and 2019 and let us know where the GM cleaned up. I'll give you one to start. Luke Voit.

[Praxis]

We are in a fine position now because it's easy to tear down a team. We should be in a better position considering the caliber of players we had available to trade. Even dumb orgs like SD and WAS fell face first into Tatis and Trea Turner.

 

We got nothing for Pillar despite this whole board wanting to trade him since 2016. Nothing for Smoak who had 38 bombs and 3.6 WAR in 2017. Sold as low as possible on Sanchez who was in Cy Young voting in 2016. Again, this whole board wanted to trade Sanchez for 2-3 years now. A smart org would have sold him for a f***ing ransom. Estrada 3 WAR in 2016, got nothing.

 

Shatkins and Stroman basically feuded as soon as they met and still we held him for an extra 2 years, why?

 

Got nothing for Happ. I like Merryweather but it's almost nothing for Donaldson.

 

We did an average job on buying and flipping veterans like Sogard. Our pitching choices were terrible though outside of Shoemaker. But that's because we don't have a major league pitching coach worth a s***. The Twins targeted Martin Perez off the scrap heap because Wes Johnson said he could rebuild him, and he did. The Giants signed Pomeranz for $1.5M and traded him for Dubon. We signed Buchholz and sent him straight to the DL.

 

The drafting has been very good, however. And the overall philosophy of how to build a major league roster is good as well. The execution of it is underwhelming but the blueprint is so optimal and easy to execute (just tank lol) that we should be trending up very shortly now.

 

Edit: How the f*** did Cashman beat the entire return of our rebuild with 2 months of Chapman to the Cubs? (Gleyber Torres)

 

MikeM - repeat this point until the chickens come home to roost. It's spot on.

[glory]

We are in a fine position now because it's easy to tear down a team. We should be in a better position considering the caliber of players we had available to trade. Even dumb orgs like SD and WAS fell face first into Tatis and Trea Turner.

 

We got nothing for Pillar despite this whole board wanting to trade him since 2016. Nothing for Smoak who had 38 bombs and 3.6 WAR in 2017. Sold as low as possible on Sanchez who was in Cy Young voting in 2016. Again, this whole board wanted to trade Sanchez for 2-3 years now. A smart org would have sold him for a f***ing ransom. Estrada 3 WAR in 2016, got nothing.

 

Shatkins and Stroman basically feuded as soon as they met and still we held him for an extra 2 years, why?

 

Got nothing for Happ. I like Merryweather but it's almost nothing for Donaldson.

 

We did an average job on buying and flipping veterans like Sogard. Our pitching choices were terrible though outside of Shoemaker. But that's because we don't have a major league pitching coach worth a s***. The Twins targeted Martin Perez off the scrap heap because Wes Johnson said he could rebuild him, and he did. The Giants signed Pomeranz for $1.5M and traded him for Dubon. We signed Buchholz and sent him straight to the DL.

 

The drafting has been very good, however. And the overall philosophy of how to build a major league roster is good as well. The execution of it is underwhelming but the blueprint is so optimal and easy to execute (just tank lol) that we should be trending up very shortly now.

 

Edit: How the f*** did Cashman beat the entire return of our rebuild with 2 months of Chapman to the Cubs? (Gleyber Torres)

 

I agree that Atkins sold low in almost every situation, it is one of my major gripes with him, but that goes back to my earlier point. They spent 1.5 years pretending to contend. They never made a real attempt at going for it, nor did they trade anyone at peak value. They rebuilt in the background. That's why the farm is so good primarily due to drafting and international signings. They didn't trade prospects for big league help, they plastered the team with cheap vet plug ins they signed for little in free agency. They didn't trade vets at peak value, they held on to them to try to stumble into a WC spot hoping the weak AL stayed weak (then the Yankees got good overnight, and the rest is history). It was the most risk averse and hedge conscious a team could possibly be, likely do to ownership seeing $$$$ and not wanting to derail that money stream before they had to.

 

Rebuilding teams are not all built the same. Some teams make great trades. The Jays don't. Some teams draft and sign international talent at a high level. That's where the Jays are. My point and your point are the same I think, the team would be in a much better spot if Atkins was a better trader combined with the drafting. Unfortunately he isn't, but luckily he hasn't been stupid in areas besides trading, so it mitigated a lot of the damage. The Jays are in a decent spot because of it.

 

The one thing that hurt the Jays is that once they embraced rebuilding, it was too late to not only get value for their existing vets, but also get value in the trade market period. For some reason, maybe it was the CBA agreement shortly before the 2017 season, teams began to value prospects differently than they did previously. You can't trade for top prospects anymore. I don't think Atkins is clever enough to fleece a GM anyway, but having vets to trade nowadays is almost a disadvantage unless they come with many years of affordable control.

[Jimcanuck]

A lot of the above posts are hindsight. There were quite a few good posters that didn't want JD moved after 2017 season, or Pillar moved whenever, etc. With JD maybe Shatkins thought he could be extended and fit within what they initially anticipated to be a short retool/rebuild.

 

Would have preferred an aggressive rebuild after 2017 at the latest but then none of us need worry about the bottom line as Shatkins does.

[glory]

If you're arguing that Cashman is on a different planet compared to Atkins, you won't get an argument for me. Atkins isn't qualified to shine Cashman's shoes as an executive. The Yankees have a track record of developing talent better than practically everyone. If Cashman traded for Derek Fisher, we'd be wondering when, not if, he'll turn into a star. The Jays don't have that credibility with taking flawed talent and fixing them. If they did, this rebuild would sure as hell be a lot better.

[Barkerfan23]

We use WAR to evaluate players relative to each other but we don't do the same for GMs.

 

Look at how Cashman can assemble a controllable core arguably better than ours, just through trades, and do it on the fly:

 

Gleyber Torres - 2 months of Chapman (re-signed Chapman)

Frazier/Sheffield - Andrew Miller rental.

Didi Gregorius - s***** version of Shane Greene

Luke Voit - Gallegos

Aaron Hicks - John Ryan Murphy ffs. Are you f***ing kidding me?

Domingo German and Eovaldi - Martin Prado

Chad Green and Cessa - Justin Wilson

Tommy Kahnle - Clippard and Rutherford

 

And here we are fapping to Shatkins and half the core is inherited: Vlad/Jansen. And the other half is drafting.

 

I guess the question is can Atkins out draft all of his poor trading.

[Deadpool]

I guess the question is can Atkins out draft all of his poor trading.

 

Thing is, Atkins does get good pieces in trades, he just gives up too much to get them. I'm pretty okay with everything we got this deadline, interesting and decent pieces across the board, but he surrendered a lot more value than I think he needed to, or failed to get extra pieces back to add value on the return.

[Laika]

We are in a fine position now because it's easy to tear down a team. We should be in a better position considering the caliber of players we had available to trade. Even dumb orgs like SD and WAS fell face first into Tatis and Trea Turner.

 

We got nothing for Pillar despite this whole board wanting to trade him since 2016. Nothing for Smoak who had 38 bombs and 3.6 WAR in 2017. Sold as low as possible on Sanchez who was in Cy Young voting in 2016. Again, this whole board wanted to trade Sanchez for 2-3 years now. A smart org would have sold him for a f***ing ransom. Estrada 3 WAR in 2016, got nothing.

 

Shatkins and Stroman basically feuded as soon as they met and still we held him for an extra 2 years, why?

 

Got nothing for Happ. I like Merryweather but it's almost nothing for Donaldson.

 

We did an average job on buying and flipping veterans like Sogard. Our pitching choices were terrible though outside of Shoemaker. But that's because we don't have a major league pitching coach worth a s***. The Twins targeted Martin Perez off the scrap heap because Wes Johnson said he could rebuild him, and he did. The Giants signed Pomeranz for $1.5M and traded him for Dubon. We signed Buchholz and sent him straight to the DL.

 

The drafting has been very good, however. And the overall philosophy of how to build a major league roster is good as well. The execution of it is underwhelming but the blueprint is so optimal and easy to execute (just tank lol) that we should be trending up very shortly now.

 

Edit: How the f*** did Cashman beat the entire return of our rebuild with 2 months of Chapman to the Cubs? (Gleyber Torres)

 

This is such a fantastic amount of revisionist history ********.

 

The 2016 Toronto Blue Jays lost in the ALCS. You think they should have immediately, before 2017, sold all of their veterans and good players who were under control and had value, in order to accelerate a rebuild? That was literally the only point in time that selling Estrada or Sanchez would have returned real/significant value. They should have sold Stroman and Donaldson immediately after going to the ALCS? Suck my farts.

 

And then the free agent market for veterans unexpectedly went down the shitter around 2017-2018, and players like Pillar and Smoak no longer had significant value. This caught everyone in baseball by surprise.

 

I would never submit that the front office has been perfect, but to even begin to argue that Toronto "... should be in a better position considering the caliber of players [they] had available to trade" is mostly just some whiny talk show host level ********.

[Jimcanuck]

We use WAR to evaluate players relative to each other but we don't do the same for GMs.

 

Look at how Cashman can assemble a controllable core arguably better than ours, just through trades, and do it on the fly:

 

Gleyber Torres - 2 months of Chapman (re-signed Chapman)

Frazier/Sheffield - Andrew Miller rental.

Didi Gregorius - s***** version of Shane Greene

Luke Voit - Gallegos

Aaron Hicks - John Ryan Murphy ffs. Are you f***ing kidding me?

Domingo German and Eovaldi - Martin Prado

Chad Green and Cessa - Justin Wilson

Tommy Kahnle - Clippard and Rutherford

 

And here we are fapping to Shatkins and half the core is inherited: Vlad/Jansen. And the other half is drafting.

 

Cashman did well in many trades, did s*** in some others.

 

Have to remember Cashman is working with a very high player payroll organization, so he is always going to have more assets of value available to trade than any other team, save perhaps the Dodgers from time to time.

[Jimcanuck]

In 2017, we finished 76-86, one game ahead of the Orioles for last place in the AL East. We could have sold in 2017, yes.

 

Of course, this was also a predictable result for 2017 since we did nothing to improve the team. So what exactly was the plan that year?

 

We should be in a better position considering the players we had to trade, yes. This is almost literally irrefutable when you consider what we got for some of those players. Would you get more for Stroman, selling him 2 years ago? Yes. More for Sanchez? Yes. More for Pillar? Yes. Donaldson? Yes. And on. You can't really believe the opposite, can you?

 

The hang up, it seems, is the decision to sell. But as I stated above, we were out of it. It's better to sell a year too early than a year too late, everyone knows that.

 

Agreed, 100%. I was right in 2017 and still right today.

[Spanky99]

In 2017, we finished 76-86, one game ahead of the Orioles for last place in the AL East. We could have sold in 2017, yes.

 

Of course, this was also a predictable result for 2017 since we did nothing to improve the team. So what exactly was the plan that year?

 

We should be in a better position considering the players we had to trade, yes. This is almost literally irrefutable when you consider what we got for some of those players. Would you get more for Stroman, selling him 2 years ago? Yes. More for Sanchez? Yes. More for Pillar? Yes. Donaldson? Yes. And on. You can't really believe the opposite, can you?

 

The hang up, it seems, is the decision to sell. But as I stated above, we were out of it. It's better to sell a year too early than a year too late, everyone knows that.

 

They know this, ownership had their hands tied, what can you do. Shapiro said he wanted to rebuild after '16, blame it on Rogers I guess.

[Stangstag]

They know this, ownership had their hands tied, what can you do. Shapiro said he wanted to rebuild after '16, blame it on Rogers I guess.

 

Very frustrating if true

[Barkerfan23]

They know this, ownership had their hands tied, what can you do. Shapiro said he wanted to rebuild after '16, blame it on Rogers I guess.

 

Holy f***, this guy says the same thing over and over.

[Brownie19]

Well ya, I do agree with this. But the writing was on the wall in 2017, almost immediately. There was tons of time between the 2016 ALCS and 2019 to sell players.

 

The returns for all our core players are just bad, plain and simple. They're below replacement level GM returns. Al Avila gets these returns.

 

Most of those Yankee trade examples you gave were from 2017 or earlier. The market for prospects collapsed in 2018 and 2019...as did the value of veterans like Smoak, Pillar, etc. The returns we've gotten over the past 2 years are very similar to other deals in baseball. That exacerbates your issue re: timing; however, if their hands were in fact tied by Ownership, then that muddies the waters. I don't think anyone thought the market would go from Quintana for Eloy down to Gray for the 3 marginal guys the Yankees gave up to get him. BTW - Gray gives you a good example of how much the market collapse as even the GREAT Cashman traded Gray for next to nothing. The collapse of the market has caught almost all of MLB by surprise. The White Sox have to be viewed as brilliant as they managed to unload Quintana and Easton for massive hauls right before it happened. Cashman stole Torres too right before it collapsed.

 

Who knows when the FO got approval to tear down this team. Maybe they had the ability the whole time, maybe Rogers stopped them until this year. Tough to judge without that information. At least in the meantime, they were able to create payroll flexibility, while building depth within the farm system.

[Barkerfan23]

Why are you guys making excuses for this administration. You need to hold them accountable.

[JaysAllMighty]

Why are you guys making excuses for this administration. You need to hold them accountable.

 

The real question is why are the guys trying to explain the reality of the current market to people like you?

[Sorrow]

Ryan Borucki to see Dr. James Andrews for a consultation on his elbow. I know he had TJS once before but IIRC he had another elbow issue prior to this one as well did he not?

[Spanky99]

Well ya, I do agree with this. But the writing was on the wall in 2017, almost immediately. There was tons of time between the 2016 ALCS and 2019 to sell players.

 

The returns for all our core players are just bad, plain and simple. They're below replacement level GM returns. Al Avila gets these returns.

 

I understand Mike, they weren't letting him, hell, they didn't let them move JD in the off-season, and we know how that turned out.

[Abomination]

Ryan Borucki to see Dr. James Andrews for a consultation on his elbow. I know he had TJS once before but IIRC he had another elbow issue prior to this one as well did he not?

 

My bad guys. Remind me not to trade for Jays pitchers in the future. In particular, there should be a forum ban on anyone trading me Pearson.

[Orgfiller]

Cite the case that illustrates better value was available. It's all relative man. Look at the deals made in 2018 and 2019 and let us know where the GM cleaned up. I'll give you one to start. Luke Voit.

 

And even in the Voit deal, the Cardinals got a legitimately elite reliever in Giovanny Gallegos.

[Spanky99]

Ryan Borucki to see Dr. James Andrews for a consultation on his elbow. I know he had TJS once before but IIRC he had another elbow issue prior to this one as well did he not?

 

Yes.

[Spanky99]

Holy f***, this guy says the same thing over and over.

 

lol... right, I can go to one of your old aliases and find you saying exactly the same s*** you do today about Shatkins on AA, while you use AA as a missed opportunity now compared to Shatkins, you fake pos. Same thing with JPR, etc... Managers everything, all you're here to do is stir the s***, as always.