General 2019 Blue Jays Discussion Thread

[Spanky99]

You seem new, and I don't want to rip you too much, but you say dumb things a lot it seems (which is why I asked if you're a troll). Sorry if that's harsh.

 

It's not harsh when he responds to DP, "this has got to be one of the dumbest post ever". The self awareness is a swing and miss.

[Ex Player]

Dude - I think we all need to get to know you better. Can you answer these?

 

1. are you Rob Ducey?

2. are you a troll?

3. do you really believe average, ERA and counting stats are a good way to judge how good or valuable a player is?

 

Russell Martin is the 10th best catcher of all time (in terms of WAR) and we bought him on the perfect win curve projection and he provide incredible value to this team.

 

We extended Bautista AFTER his 54 HR (6.6 WAR) season in 2010...not what I would call "still developing".

 

Rogers has spent a lot of money on this team. We are consistently in the top 10 in payroll. Has that meant LOTS of FA signings? No....but I'd suggest you go research major FA signings in the MLB and report back on how successful those have been for teams over the past 10 years. What you'll find is it often doesn't pan out. FA is a tool teams can use to put them over the top; however, it's been shown over and over that using it as your main tool for building a team is often fools gold.

 

You seem new, and I don't want to rip you too much, but you say dumb things a lot it seems (which is why I asked if you're a troll). Sorry if that's harsh

Not harsh at all.

 

1. No I'm not Rob Ducey, I played in the same league as he did and we are still good friends.

2. No, I'm not trolling. But I think you are since asking me personal questions as to who I am has nothing to do with the thread subject.

3. To a large extent, yes I do.

 

The fact Martin has a good WAR discounts a lot of his other stats. I do not think Russell Martin is (or was) ever a top 10 catcher of alltime. Not even close.

 

The fact you repped this post: https://www.bluejaysmessageboard.com/threads/8877-General-2019-Blue-Jays-Discussion-Thread?p=1364542&viewfull=1#post1364542

And you didnt even realize Clemens, Molitor, Winfield, Dave Stewart, Jack Morris and Jose Canseco were all signed well before Rogers bought the Jays in 2000, tells me all I need to know about your knowledge of baseball

[Spanky99]

Welp...

[BlueRocky]

My point that Rogers as a general rule doesnt like to sign big FA players stands.

Its a fact, sorry if that bothers you.

 

And lots of big FA players would come to Toronto if Rogers offered them the money

 

Mickey mouse organizations would also never acquire contracts like Mark Buehrle, Jose Reyes, or flip him for an even longer expensive contract like Tulowitzki. They’ve also eaten significant money on many occasions to either increase trade value coming back or free up playing time for kids.

 

Regardless which organization the player inks the contract, we still write those pay cheques when you acquire them. If Free Agents don’t want to sign on a dotted line printed in a Toronto office we can’t force them. Overpaying 30 yr old guys extra term and dollar just to come to here usually doesn’t bode well for said team. Example, would you really wanted us to sign David Price more term or dollar than what Boston paid him to keep him here, or do what we did and got JA Happ instead? There’s only a handful of contracts like that ever made sense in the end, in recent baseball history.

 

The fact we had 150-170M payroll just three years ago speaks volumes how the payroll will be there when the time is right. Teams with half that payroll have made the postseason. Now whether Atkins is willing to spend all that money on two guys or spread it evenly around the roster is another story.

[Brownie19]

Not harsh at all.

 

1. No I'm not Rob Ducey, I played in the same league as he did and we are still good friends.

2. No, I'm not trolling. But I think you are since asking me personal questions as to who I am has nothing to do with the thread subject.

3. To a large extent, yes I do.

 

The fact Martin has a good WAR discounts a lot of his other stats. I do not think Russell Martin is (or was) ever a top 10 catcher of alltime. Not even close.

 

The fact you repped this post: https://www.bluejaysmessageboard.com/threads/8877-General-2019-Blue-Jays-Discussion-Thread?p=1364542&viewfull=1#post1364542

And you didnt even realize Clemens, Molitor, Winfield, Dave Stewart, Jack Morris and Jose Canseco were all signed well before Rogers bought the Jays in 2000, tells me all I need to know about your knowledge of baseball

 

If you're going to continue citing average and RBI's in support of your arguments - you're probably not going to enjoy your experience on this board. Regarding the bold. I don't think you understand how WAR works.

[Boxcar]

Not harsh at all.

 

1. No I'm not Rob Ducey, I played in the same league as he did and we are still good friends.

2. No, I'm not trolling. But I think you are since asking me personal questions as to who I am has nothing to do with the thread subject.

3. To a large extent, yes I do.

 

The fact Martin has a good WAR discounts a lot of his other stats. I do not think Russell Martin is (or was) ever a top 10 catcher of alltime. Not even close.

 

The fact you repped this post: https://www.bluejaysmessageboard.com/threads/8877-General-2019-Blue-Jays-Discussion-Thread?p=1364542&viewfull=1#post1364542

And you didnt even realize Clemens, Molitor, Winfield, Dave Stewart, Jack Morris and Jose Canseco were all signed well before Rogers bought the Jays in 2000, tells me all I need to know about your knowledge of baseball

 

Man, Jim Thome should have played catcher. He would have been the best catcher of all time since only homers, RBIs and BATING AVRIGE matter.

[glory]

This is objectively false, he's been on record saying when the time is right, they have the green light from ownership. There's far too many people on here running around like chicken littles, myself, I'm going to sit back and see what they do, in regards to this rebuild. I'm on team extend Stroman, if he asks for too much, only then do you move him for a haul. Hopefully this all works out. It's time to move Sanchize to the pen, long term. They'll do what's best for the team. FWIW... I agree with most of your post aside from free agency.

 

My point was Shapiro has said publicly that he believes in supplementing through free agency, not using it to build. In other words, he’d rather develop Gerrit Cole and sign 2016 Happ than sign Cole to a monster contract. That approach will work if Shatkins succeeds in developing internally but it also means it’s not Rogers holding the team back from signing expensive free agents. It will be the front office.

 

The bright side is it has never been easier to supplement through free agency (see 2019 Twins). Bad news is we don’t have anything to supplement, and probably won’t for a few years.

[Ex Player]

Mickey mouse organizations would also never acquire contracts like Mark Buehrle, Jose Reyes, or flip him for an even longer expensive contract like Tulowitzki. They’ve also eaten significant money on many occasions to either increase trade value coming back or free up playing time for kids.

 

Regardless which organization the player inks the contract, we still write those pay cheques when you acquire them. If Free Agents don’t want to sign on a dotted line printed in a Toronto office we can’t force them. Overpaying 30 yr old guys extra term and dollar just to come to here usually doesn’t bode well for said team. Example, would you really wanted us to sign David Price more term or dollar than what Boston paid him to keep him here, or do what we did and got JA Happ instead? There’s only a handful of contracts like that ever made sense in the end, in recent baseball history.

 

The fact we had 150-170M payroll just three years ago speaks volumes how the payroll will be there when the time is right. Teams with half that payroll have made the postseason. Now whether Atkins is willing to spend all that money on two guys or spread it evenly around the roster is another story

I partially agree, but there have been many other free agents throughout the years that were younger and cheaper than Price which Jays/Rogers also refused to sign.

 

Facts show Rogers does not like to sign expensive free agents (for whatever reason).

Maybe they are cheap, or maybe they find it too risky. Or maybe its a combination of both?

[Deadpool]

Maybe if he kepy Dwight Smith and Harold .413 BA Ramirez the team would be better.

 

Can't even evaluate his own players. Worst GM we have ever had...Smith has scored more runs and has more RBI than anyone on our team playing for the black hole Baltimore.

 

Dwight Smith is an inconsequential player, and Harold Ramirez was a free agent and he CHOSE not to sign with the Jays. They made him an offer that he refused.

[Deadpool]

Okay, so lets say Martin was a top FA catcher IYO. Thats one FA signing in the last 19 years.

All the other big stars (Josh, Tulo, Price....etc) were acquired through trades.

Bautista was signed when he was still developing and they got him for cheap.

Same thing with Encarnacion, he wasnt a big FA signing either (although Jays did offer him lots of $$ to stay in 2016).

 

Sorry, I hardly see any big FA signing in the last 19 years.

I wish they did sign more

 

AJ Burnett and BJ Ryan were given two of the highest contracts ever given to pitchers at the time.

[Brownie19]

I partially agree, but there have been many other free agents throughout the years that were younger and cheaper than Price which Jays/Rogers also refused to sign.

 

Facts show Rogers does not like to sign expensive free agents (for whatever reason).

Maybe they are cheap, or maybe they find it too risky. Or maybe its a combination of both?

 

Go look at the list of players who have signed massive FA deals and you may get your answer as to why the Jays have generally avoided them. Look at the entire list - looks past RBI's, Average, Wins and ERA and then return with a summary.

[Spanky99]

My point was Shapiro has said publicly that he believes in supplementing through free agency, not using it to build. In other words, he’d rather develop Gerrit Cole and sign 2016 Happ than sign Cole to a monster contract. That approach will work if Shatkins succeeds in developing internally but it also means it’s not Rogers holding the team back from signing expensive free agents. It will be the front office.

 

The bright side is it has never been easier to supplement through free agency (see 2019 Twins). Bad news is we don’t have anything to supplement, and probably won’t for a few years.

 

Gotcha, so basically we agree and that's why we're in the midst of a rebuild, it's not going to happen overnight. We'll have to be patient and see how all this unfolds, the money will be there is all I'm saying, how they spend it isn't wrapped into "the plan" as it can go awry, things change. No-one knows, really. Folk saying they won't spend are completely wrong. Ownership has shown they will.

[Spanky99]

I partially agree, but there have been many other free agents throughout the years that were younger and cheaper than Price which Jays/Rogers also refused to sign.

 

Facts show Rogers does not like to sign expensive free agents (for whatever reason).

Maybe they are cheap, or maybe they find it too risky. Or maybe its a combination of both?

 

http://i.imgur.com/8VYMSq8.gif

[Spanky99]

I found a an interview in this link, plus article, with Shapiro... I don't think it's been posted before?

 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/blue-jays-shapiro-talks-guerrero-jr-s-progress-team-struggles/

 

When the Toronto Blue Jays first called up Vladimir Guerrero Jr., the team swept the Oakland Athletics in three games with the star rookie registering a hit in each contest.

 

Since then, however, the team has lost seven of eight and Guerrero has gone cold, batting .120 over 28 plate appearances with eight strikeouts and only three walks.

 

Mark Shapiro said he won’t put a specific date on when Guerrero’s progress will be evaluated by the team, but the Blue Jays president isn’t concerned about the third baseman’s first MLB slump.

 

“There have been very few players in the history of the game who have just arrived and the magic dust just made them incredible players from Day 1,” Shapiro told Baseball Central on Sportsnet 590 The Fan Wednesday. “Part of transitioning to another level is understanding that they’re now going to be exposed to a different level of information, a different level of ability to exploit and use that information and be attacked and attack hitters. Different set of pressures, different set of anxieties, along with a different set of resources.”

 

Guerrero told Sportsnet Tuesday following a 3-0 loss to the Twins that he sometimes tries to hit the ball too hard, adding that he has to control his emotion and just try hitting the ball up the middle.

 

“It’s a process of helping them settle in,” Shapiro said of Guerrero and the other young players on the roster. “If you believe in the talent and the track record then those things are going to translate over time. How fast that happens, that’s the biggest challenge about where we are.”

 

Shapiro also pointed out most players end up going back to triple-A, but made no mention about whether or not the team is considering that for Guerrero at this time.

 

The Blue Jays had been among the oldest teams in baseball for several years running yet this season is a different story with management injecting plenty of youth besides the 20-year-old Guerrero into the lineup.

 

“Even when we lose it’s a good environment and there’s good work getting done and I think if we continue to stay that course – if we’re tough enough and strong enough and resolved enough to stick with the plan and not panic – that good things are gonna happen,” Shapiro said. “History will tell you that and my own experiences lead me to believe that and know that.”

 

Vlad Jr. won't bring Blue Jays fans back, winning team will

Long-term success is the obvious goal, but the short-term struggles that occur along the way can frustrate veteran players and those in the prime of their career.

 

Starting pitcher Aaron Sanchez spoke from the heart and called out his teammates a week ago after a disappointing effort against the Los Angeles Angels.

 

“It was f–––––– brutal, to be honest,” Sanchez said. “I mean, we played so well. We go out there and sweep Oakland who’s a pretty good team and then you come out here and just get embarrassed. It’s not fun when you go out there and guys just weren’t ready to play, I felt like. It is what it is.”

 

The Blue Jays are nearly at the quarter point of the season and haven’t been above .500 since the third game of the year.

 

They’ll look to avoid a sweep at the hands of the Twins Wednesday before hosting the White Sox for a three-game series beginning Friday.

 

“Nobody likes to lose, whether it’s the fans, whether it’s the front office, whether it’s the players, the reality of the juncture that we’re at is we’re gonna have weeks, nights where it’s extremely encouraging and you feel positive,” Shapiro said. “Then the nature of competing, the nature of professional sports are there are gonna be stretches where it feels really terrible and we’re all frustrated and we all hate it and as a leader we don’t have the luxury of wallowing in that.

 

“We’ve got to pull back, look at the longer-term trajectory and make sure good things are happening [all throughout the system] and that we’re doing everything humanly possible to control what we can control to get better.”

 

God... that Sanchez quote has so much cringe.

Edited May 29, 2019 by Spanky99

[Ex Player]

Go look at the list of players who have signed massive FA deals and you may get your answer as to why the Jays have generally avoided them. Look at the entire list - looks past RBI's, Average, Wins and ERA and then return with a summary

Okay fair enough, so now you are giving a reason why Jays are reluctant to sign expensive FA's.

But that still means I'm right and that they generally don't to sign big name free agents.

 

I think its often a gamble as well, player could get injured, or get lazy, or just lose form.

But sometimes you gotta do it, just be selective about it and hope it works out

[Olerud363]

Dwight Smith is an inconsequential player, and Harold Ramirez was a free agent and he CHOSE not to sign with the Jays. They made him an offer that he refused.

 

Wasn't Ramirez only a free agent because the Jays chose not to put him on the 40 man?? If they put him on the 40 man wouldn't they of had the same control over him as any other young player??

 

"Note that a player who ordinarily would have been declared a Rule 55 minor league free-agent is NOT eligible to be a free-agent if the player is either added to an MLB Reserve List (40-man roster) or agrees to a minor league successor contract prior to 5 PM (Eastern) on the 5th day after the final game of the World Series."

 

As far as I can tell they decided he wasn't worth the 40 man roster spot, thus he became a minor league free agent. So they had the option of keeping him they just chose other players instead. Same as with Dwight Smith. (Still probably inconsequential in both cases)

[Ex Player]

http://i.imgur.com/8VYMSq8.gif

Doing the facepalm .gif without providing a counter-argument is weak.

Means you got nothing to really say.

 

David Price has been excellent for BoSox when he signed with them, even winning a WS.

Why didnt Jays sign him long-term when they had the chance??

 

I know why. Do you??

[Spanky99]

I partially agree, but there have been many other free agents throughout the years that were younger and cheaper than Price which Jays/Rogers also refused to sign.

 

Facts show Rogers does not like to sign expensive free agents (for whatever reason).

Maybe they are cheap, or maybe they find it too risky. Or maybe its a combination of both?

 

Doing the facepalm .gif without providing a counter-argument is weak.

Means you got nothing to really say.

 

David Price has been excellent for BoSox when he signed with them, even winning a WS.

Why didnt Jays sign him long-term when they had the chance??

 

I know why. Do you??

 

My God, you actually think Toronto should've signed Price? Rumour was they offered more and he chose the Bosox by the way, like many other players have... that would've been a colossal mistake. I'm facepalming your entire post, it's ludicrous.

 

The first part bolded has been pulled from your ass, how do you know that they refused signing younger/cheaper players? The second bolded is more of the same, Facts?! What f***ing facts do you know? Show what you know, with facts, please!

[Spanky99]

Wasn't Ramirez only a free agent because the Jays chose not to put him on the 40 man?? If they put him on the 40 man wouldn't they of had the same control over him as any other young player??

 

"Note that a player who ordinarily would have been declared a Rule 55 minor league free-agent is NOT eligible to be a free-agent if the player is either added to an MLB Reserve List (40-man roster) or agrees to a minor league successor contract prior to 5 PM (Eastern) on the 5th day after the final game of the World Series."

 

As far as I can tell they decided he wasn't worth the 40 man roster spot, thus he became a minor league free agent. So they had the option of keeping him they just chose other players instead. Same as with Dwight Smith. (Still probably inconsequential in both cases)

 

Yes, he chose FA after not being added to the 40 man, he chose Miami after being offered more money from Toronto, he figured he had a better shot at making their roster than ours, he was right. Jays traded DSJ for 1 million in International bonus money(which they have to spend before the draft starts in a few days), so that wasn't the same.

[Olerud363]

Yes, he chose FA after not being added to the 40 man, he chose Miami after being offered more money from Toronto, he figured he had a better shot at making their roster than ours, he was right. Jays traded DSJ for 1 million in International bonus money(which they have to spend before the draft starts in a few days), so that wasn't the same.

 

It wasn't exactly the same, but both DSJ and Ramirez could of been kept if the Jays wanted to use 40 man spots on them.

[LGBJ29]

Doing the facepalm .gif without providing a counter-argument is weak.

Means you got nothing to really say.

 

David Price has been excellent for BoSox when he signed with them, even winning a WS.

Why didnt Jays sign him long-term when they had the chance??

 

I know why. Do you??

 

Yes, they decided to sign JA Happ at a fraction of the cost who by the way accumulated more fWAR over the life of his 3 year deal than Price did

[Spanky99]

Yes, they decided to sign JA Happ at a fraction of the cost who by the way accumulated more fWAR over the life of his 3 year deal than Price did

 

He doesn't believe in WAR, just his fabricated facts and ERA'Z

[Ex Player]

Yes, they decided to sign JA Happ at a fraction of the cost who by the way accumulated more fWAR over the life of his 3 year deal than Price did

Jays could have signed both Happ and Price, could they not have??

 

Reason why they didnt sign Price was because they thought at age 29 it was a bit risky, plus they didnt want to spend the money on a long-term contract. Which brings me back to my original point, Jays very rarely spend lots of money on top free agents

[Captain Adama]

Jays could have signed both Happ and Price, could they not have??

 

Reason why they didnt sign Price was because they thought at age 29 it was a bit risky, plus they didnt want to spend the money on a long-term contract. Which brings me back to my original point, Jays very rarely spend lots of money on top free agents

 

And it turned out to be a good decision.

[Spanky99]

It wasn't exactly the same, but both DSJ and Ramirez could of been kept if the Jays wanted to use 40 man spots on them.

 

Right, and they clearly decided a million in INTL slot money was what they wanted.

[Dick_Pole]

This has got to be one of the dumbest posts ever.

 

Clemens, Molitor, Winfield, Dave Stewart, Jack Morris and Jose Canseco were all signed well before Rogers bought the Jays in 2000.

Frank Thomas was 39 when they signed him, and was considered risky because of his age, which is why they got him for fairly cheap.

AJ Burnett was a good pitcher, but was never a big free agent signing (he never made the AS team until his final year in 2015).

Same with Russell Martin, a good solid catcher but a lifetime .250 hitter. I dont consider him a huge free agent either.

He is also Canadian which played a part in Rogers wanting to sign him.

 

So then lets look at all the big free agents Jays didnt sign since buying the team in 2000.

The list is a very long one.

 

Conclusion, as a general rule Rogers doesnt like to splurge cash on the biggest free agents that are available each year

 

Holy f*** dude, learn to seperate the two points I was trying to make. Point 1 was that the Blue Jays, as a franchise located in Toronto, has a history of attracting good free agents despite the inferiority complex some fellow Canadians want us all to have.

 

Point 2 was that all evidence points to Rogers not being cheap since the Beeston/AA era.

 

As far as the list being very long, if the Blue Jays signed more than 3% of notable free agents over the years, they have signed an above average amount compared to the other 29 teams in the league.

 

Also, your baseball card is worth about a penny in mint condition. Go suck a lemon Ducey.

[Spanky99]

I partially agree, but there have been many other free agents throughout the years that were younger and cheaper than Price which Jays/Rogers also refused to sign.

 

Facts show Rogers does not like to sign expensive free agents (for whatever reason).

Maybe they are cheap, or maybe they find it too risky. Or maybe its a combination of both?

 

Doing the facepalm .gif without providing a counter-argument is weak.

Means you got nothing to really say.

 

David Price has been excellent for BoSox when he signed with them, even winning a WS.

Why didnt Jays sign him long-term when they had the chance??

 

I know why. Do you??

 

My God, you actually think Toronto should've signed Price? Rumour was they offered more and he chose the Bosox by the way, like many other players have... that would've been a colossal mistake. I'm facepalming your entire post, it's ludicrous.

 

The first part bolded has been pulled from your ass, how do you know that they refused signing younger/cheaper players? The second bolded is more of the same, Facts?! What f***ing facts do you know? Show what you know, with facts, please!

 

Jays could have signed both Happ and Price, could they not have??

 

Reason why they didnt sign Price was because they thought at age 29 it was a bit risky, plus they didnt want to spend the money on a long-term contract. Which brings me back to my original point, Jays very rarely spend lots of money on top free agents

 

So where's these facts? Rumours were Toronto offered more at the time, he selected the Bosox.

[Ex Player]

So where's these facts? Rumours were Toronto offered more at the time, he selected the Bosox

Rumours eh?? Thats not true at all. Even the commentators were saying Price was a rental, that means everyone knew he was on his way out (well before he even threw his first pitch in Toronto)

[Ex Player]

And it turned out to be a good decision

I disagree. We couldve had a contender going into 2016, 2017 and 2018 if we kept him.

Jays didnt build on their 2015 success because they are cheap

[Spanky99]

Rumours eh?? Thats not true at all. Even the commentators were saying Price was a rental, that means everyone knew he was on his way out (well before he even threw his first pitch in Toronto)

 

I SAID GOOD DAY!!!

 

Facts!