Offseason Roster Thread 2017-18

[glory]

Wouldn't be surprised if we see a small trade or two to clean up some of the log jam.

[TheHurl]

Lots of interesting names who are exposed this year:

 

Top 30 prospects:

 

Rowdy Tellez

Danny Jansen

Conner Greene

Max Pentecost

Reese McGuire

Thomas Pannone

Conner Greene

Jordan Romano

Angel Perdomo

Francisco Rios

 

Other:

 

Andrew Case

Tim Lopes

Jonathan Davis

Conor Fisk

 

Tellez, Jansen, Pannone, Greene, Pentecost, and McGuire almost assuredly will be added. Maybe Perdomo as well.

 

Thanks. I can't see then having the spots to add 6 or 7. I agree with Glory, we might see some minor deals for guys that have a little less upside but more time before needing to be added. Or just leave a few of these guys exposed and hope no one is pulling a Padres.

[Key22]

Does anyone know what this team is trying to do? Signing Estrada seems to indicate they are going for it - so if you are going for it and you had the worst offense in the league and or in baseball (or very close to it) why would you not be looking at adding Dee Gordon and Stanton.

 

And before we say we have no money - if Bautista had a great year they would have picked up is near $20million option for sure - he didn't so that $20million in theory SHOULD be available. Stanton has 10 years left but he is 27(28 in a few days) but taking inflation into account $25 million isn't exactly insane for an MVP player. Surely we have enough midrange prospects to throw at Miami especially if some are out of options or we have to expose to rule 5 drafts anyway.

 

I know Gordon isn't an elite bat but he is a solid enough defender and did offer 3.1WAR last year and 4.9WAR in 2015. 60 steals and close to 80% success rate is very solid (I can't remember the threshold needed to make stealing worthwhile but I believe this is about it).

 

Now if you know you can't sign Josh Donaldson his money also becomes available. You can trade JD get a pretty good haul you still have an elite bat. Then make a move the following off season. Tulo the albatross doesn't help but the Jays should have the money for both Stanton and Gordon - they keep saying they want to improve team speed and they certainly need a middle infielder because Tulo and Travis are basically guaranteed to spend half the season on the DL - and I'm pretty sure no one here wants to see Goins and Barney playing 100 games. If Miami really is trying to salary dump then we should be looking. His contract isn't as lousy as I though - 25 million for several years then 32 million and the last season is back to 25 million. He can opt out 2020.

 

I know it's a pipedream but his age and performance are such that 10 years isn't that horrendous. pay to his 37 season - probably good until 35 and dips at 36 but still. 1-2 weak years - I mean we're paying Tulo and his under .700OPS and deteriorating defense so...

 

Or is the plan to try and win this year and then blow it up? Thing is they have zero chance to win this year with a league worst offense - Jay Bruce is NOT the answer. Spend $25 million a year and get QUALITY or spend $13million and get a useless bum.

[G-Snarls]

Does anyone know what this team is trying to do? Signing Estrada seems to indicate they are going for it - so if you are going for it and you had the worst offense in the league and or in baseball (or very close to it) why would you not be looking at adding Dee Gordon and Stanton.

 

And before we say we have no money - if Bautista had a great year they would have picked up is near $20million option for sure - he didn't so that $20million in theory SHOULD be available. Stanton has 10 years left but he is 27(28 in a few days) but taking inflation into account $25 million isn't exactly insane for an MVP player. Surely we have enough midrange prospects to throw at Miami especially if some are out of options or we have to expose to rule 5 drafts anyway.

 

I know Gordon isn't an elite bat but he is a solid enough defender and did offer 3.1WAR last year and 4.9WAR in 2015. 60 steals and close to 80% success rate is very solid (I can't remember the threshold needed to make stealing worthwhile but I believe this is about it).

 

Now if you know you can't sign Josh Donaldson his money also becomes available. You can trade JD get a pretty good haul you still have an elite bat. Then make a move the following off season. Tulo the albatross doesn't help but the Jays should have the money for both Stanton and Gordon - they keep saying they want to improve team speed and they certainly need a middle infielder because Tulo and Travis are basically guaranteed to spend half the season on the DL - and I'm pretty sure no one here wants to see Goins and Barney playing 100 games. If Miami really is trying to salary dump then we should be looking. His contract isn't as lousy as I though - 25 million for several years then 32 million and the last season is back to 25 million. He can opt out 2020.

 

I know it's a pipedream but his age and performance are such that 10 years isn't that horrendous. pay to his 37 season - probably good until 35 and dips at 36 but still. 1-2 weak years - I mean we're paying Tulo and his under .700OPS and deteriorating defense so...

 

Or is the plan to try and win this year and then blow it up? Thing is they have zero chance to win this year with a league worst offense - Jay Bruce is NOT the answer. Spend $25 million a year and get QUALITY or spend $13million and get a useless bum.

 

I think they're going to spend some money for 2018 in order to remain competitive and keep attendance up

 

They probably have 30-40M to spend in free agency/trading for contracts so it can be done

 

I suspect they view next year as a bridge year to having more in-house cheaper talent coming soon

[KingKat]

I think they're going to spend some money for 2018 in order to remain competitive and keep attendance up

 

They probably have 30-40M to spend in free agency/trading for contracts so it can be done

 

I suspect they view next year as a bridge year to having more in-house cheaper talent coming soon

 

They are willing to commit some money. What they aren't willing to do is take the long term pain for short term gain route that AA took with guys like Reyes, Tulo and Martin. Those Stanton and Gordon contracts commit way too much future money to be appealing. They are going to take a Boston 2013 type approach.

[Boxcar]

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2017/11/2017-18-top-50-mlb-free-agents-with-predictions.html

 

mlbtraderumors.com's Top 50 Free Agent List is out.

 

They have the Jays signing Jay Bruce (3 years, 39 million), Eduardo Nunez (2 years, 14 million) and Tony Watson (2 years, 12 million).

 

I'd rather bring back Brandon Morrow than throw that money at Watson, even if Morrow is more expensive.

 

Also, just fireballing, but what about some kind of three way where we end up with Stanton + a couple of prospects for Donaldson?

[Brownie19]

Does anyone know what this team is trying to do? Signing Estrada seems to indicate they are going for it - so if you are going for it and you had the worst offense in the league and or in baseball (or very close to it) why would you not be looking at adding Dee Gordon and Stanton.

 

Points out we need to improve the offense, suggests Dee Gordon - who hits like Pillar. Classic Key22!

[KingKat]

Thanks. I can't see then having the spots to add 6 or 7. I agree with Glory, we might see some minor deals for guys that have a little less upside but more time before needing to be added. Or just leave a few of these guys exposed and hope no one is pulling a Padres.

 

Biggest decision seems to be at catcher. The three catchers on the 40 are Martin, Maille and Lopez. I think the latter two get exposed and so does Pentecost (or you trade them if you can get a return). That would open spots for both Jansen and McGuire who are the two you want to keep. Problem with that is that it doesn't leave you with a spot for an external backup catcher. You'd have to either just hand the backup job to McGuire, hope one of Jansen of McGuire clears (seems doubtful) or try to get a decent return for one or the other. Considering the Jays don't seem all that keen to spend on a backup catcher and considering just how terribly going with a cheap free agent backfired last year (Salty) maybe it's time to just run with McGuire?

[BTS]

Biggest decision seems to be at catcher. The three catchers on the 40 are Martin, Maille and Lopez. I think the latter two get exposed and so does Pentecost (or you trade them if you can get a return). That would open spots for both Jansen and McGuire who are the two you want to keep. Problem with that is that it doesn't leave you with a spot for an external backup catcher. You'd have to either just hand the backup job to McGuire, hope one of Jansen of McGuire clears (seems doubtful) or try to get a decent return for one or the other. Considering the Jays don't seem all that keen to spend on a backup catcher and considering just how terribly going with a cheap free agent backfired last year (Salty) maybe it's time to just run with McGuire?

 

I'm really hoping that the team acquires a competent backup. We've been dealing with a tire fire in that spot for years.

 

- find a backup that won't be a -1 win sinkhole

- get Jansen and McGuire on the 40-man

- outright Maille and Lopez

- expose Pentecost in the Rule V

[KingKat]

I'm really hoping that the team acquires a competent backup. We've been dealing with a tire fire in that spot for years.

 

- find a backup that won't be a -1 win sinkhole

- get Jansen and McGuire on the 40-man

- outright Maille and Lopez

- expose Pentecost in the Rule V

 

So you're going to have four catchers on the 40 man?

[BTS]

So you're going to have four catchers on the 40 man?

 

I don't really see an alternative. I wouldn't start the season with either Jansen or McGuire on the 25-man, and both are too valuable to be let go. They spent all of last year with 3 on the 40-man, and I don't think a 4th would have been that big an imposition.

[KingKat]

I don't really see an alternative. I wouldn't start the season with either Jansen or McGuire on the 25-man, and both are too valuable to be let go. They spent all of last year with 3 on the 40-man, and I don't think a 4th would have been that big an imposition.

 

Teams seem pretty strict about limiting themselves to three catchers unless one of them plays a second position. I suppose Martin does double as an infielder but even allowing that I highly doubt they go with four catchers.

[Brownie19]

I'm really hoping that the team acquires a competent backup. We've been dealing with a tire fire in that spot for years.

 

- find a backup that won't be a -1 win sinkhole

- get Jansen and McGuire on the 40-man

- outright Maille and Lopez

- expose Pentecost in the Rule V

 

This FO has made it pretty clear they want a better backup catcher. The issue always seems to be that nobody (good) wants to backup Martin. I fully expect what BTS has listed above to be their plan.

[Key22]

Points out we need to improve the offense, suggests Dee Gordon - who hits like Pillar. Classic Key22!

 

Doesn't include my quote that says he's not a great bat to create a strawman.

 

The Jays are not going to land f-ing Jose Altuve - or some pie in the sky perfect offensive player. You get what is conceivably available.

 

Dee Gordon is conceivably available and he fits what Atkins says he wants. He wants middle infield help - he wants team speed. Yes I would like an .850+ OPS bat at every position - I would like 3 in their prime Paul Molitors but they aren't available. What is available is a flawed leadoff bat with 60+ steal ability and a 3 WAR player who can play short and second (where our two regulars are anything but regulars and are likely to NEVER be regulars again).

 

While I would much prefer Francisco Lindor that would cost Guerrero, Stroman, as openers.

 

So you have to be practical and you look to players that are better than what we have - and Gordon brings more to the table offensively that Tulo/Goins/Barney. And when Gordon turns a walk or a single into a steal of second it is essentially a double. Further SB threats put another element in the mind of an opposing pitcher - So when Gordon is on First in a tight game - maybe the pitcher choosed to throw a fastball instead of junk and if hitters like Donaldson or Smoak or Morales can look fastball it improves the line-up beyond just Gordon's stats. Look deeper into the game. It also puts Pillar in the 9 hole where his crappy numbers would not be so crappy - as a 9 hole hitter Pillar would be quite respectable - leading off not so much. And when Pillar is on base - he creates distractions - allows for a greater dynamic at manufacturing runs - It allows for more hit and run and bunt opportunities. Speed doesn't go into slumps.

 

I'd rather Stanton but if Miami is dumping salary - the Jays have two areas of need both of which Miami is trying to dump which makes the Jays a more attractive trade partner - IE; landing Stanton may require taking Gordon and the Jays are one of the few teams that could take both. Gordon is still a 3 WAR player - his offense from second or short is respectable. His offense was 2.8war - 20 doubles 9 triples 201 hits 60 steals and I believe was second in sprint speed in baseball. Pillar has more pop but Pillar had a .256 average and .300OBP compared to Gordon .308/.342. The difference is Gordon gets on base in front of the mashers - Pillar doesn't. When Gordon does get on - he steals second. Runner in scoring position for JD. Pillar doesn't.

 

Point is he's better than what we have. His contract is reasonable. If you can name other lead off targets that put pressure on the pitcher and improves team speed and is a 3 WAR player to hit leadoff - please list said targets BEFORE you criticize the notion - Ie; list the alternate choice who is so vastly better.

[KingKat]

This FO has made it pretty clear they want a better backup catcher. The issue always seems to be that nobody (good) wants to backup Martin. I fully expect what BTS has listed above to be their plan.

 

If they sign a backup catcher, they are going to move one of McGuire or Jansen.

[glory]

Stanton is owed close to 300 million over the next 10 years. He hits a ton of hard contact, but no way he's going to be this good for most of that deal.

 

I don't see the Jays allowing Jansen or McGuire to go, and I don't think either one will be Martin's back up either, so I'm going to guess they go with four catchers.

[Bobthe4th]

Teams seem pretty strict about limiting themselves to three catchers unless one of them plays a second position. I suppose Martin does double as an infielder but even allowing that I highly doubt they go with four catchers.

 

Maybe Martin plays more 3B next year. 2 bonuses if that did happen - JD gets more days off from the field, and the backup catcher role looks more attractive to catchers thinking of signing here.

[Boxcar]

Hell, I'd rather have Martin playing 2B instead of Goins/Barney. If you use Martin as a utility guy there could be lots of catcher starts available.

[Bobthe4th]

From MLB rumors: Offseason Outlook: Toronto Blue Jays

[burlingtonbandit]

Maybe Martin plays more 3B next year. 2 bonuses if that did happen - JD gets more days off from the field, and the backup catcher role looks more attractive to catchers thinking of signing here.

 

Seems a waste though since lots of Martin's value is his framing/blocking/defense.

[Dick_Pole]

Seems a waste though since lots of Martin's value is his framing/blocking/defense.

 

Yeah I really don't understand the desire to go out of the way to fit Martin's bat in the lineup. Unless the bench is so piss poor that he's actually the best option. And if that's the case the FO did not do its job during the offseason.

 

If Martin needs a day off from catching, just give him the day off.

 

Also I don't get the argument "no competent backup will come here cuz Martin will take up all the time"...have you guys reviewed his age or the amount of games he played in 2017? Martin seems like a great candidate to gift a worthy backup 60 games in 2018.

[Dick_Pole]

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2017/11/2017-18-top-50-mlb-free-agents-with-predictions.html

 

mlbtraderumors.com's Top 50 Free Agent List is out.

 

They have the Jays signing Jay Bruce (3 years, 39 million), Eduardo Nunez (2 years, 14 million) and Tony Watson (2 years, 12 million).

 

I dunno, this report looks like the MLB owners paid the writer off. Seems like a lot of those estimates are low.

[KingKat]

 

"no competent backup will come here cuz Martin will take up all the time"

 

Well it does seem to have been a factor in the past and this board gets burned every off-season getting their hopes up for a backup catcher. I remember last year I was arguing in favour of Jeff Mathis and BTS went on a rant because that was aiming so low. Well turns out the actual front office aimed a lot lower and cheaper than Jeff Mathis.

 

You are right that Martin can't possibly be as intimidating a presence to prospective free agents as he used to be. A smart agent would recognize that there could be an opportunity here. That being said, I'm still not going to get my hopes up. I just don't think backup catcher is a position where the Jays front office wants to sink a whole lot of money. Sure the are talking about it but they talked about it last year and still waited until there was nothing but garbage left to sign someone. I'd be o.k. with McGuire being groomed by Martin with maybe a spring training invitation to Soto if he hasn't retired by then. I'm not expecting someone good to be signed.

[BigCecil]

Maybe Martin plays more 3B next year. 2 bonuses if that did happen - JD gets more days off from the field, and the backup catcher role looks more attractive to catchers thinking of signing here.

 

Martin wRC+ has been exactly 100 the last two seasons. For a C league avg with some possible offensive upside based on past seasons 2014 and 15. More likely to regress.

 

We need better bat options than Martin. Just give him the day off from C when he needs it.

[burlingtonbandit]

I dunno, this report looks like the MLB owners paid the writer off. Seems like a lot of those estimates are low.

 

Yeah they seem a little too high on the big FA and way too low on the lower end FA.

[Bobthe4th]

Martin wRC+ has been exactly 100 the last two seasons. For a C league avg with some possible offensive upside based on past seasons 2014 and 15. More likely to regress.

 

We need better bat options than Martin. Just give him the day off from C when he needs it.

 

Yet this year Martin was arguably still the 2nd best option at 3B and his backup at catcher was uniformly useless.

 

We need more options for catcher / 3B / 2B / SS and realistically those players aren't all going to be elite with the bat. Martin being the primary backup for 3B, and then spending extra on a better back up catcher, could be a viable alternative to getting a decent middle infielder who can also play 3B (we're obviously not going to spend significantly on a specialist back up 3B).

[KingKat]

Yet this year Martin was arguably still the 2nd best option at 3B and his backup at catcher was uniformly useless.

 

We need more options for catcher / 3B / 2B / SS and realistically those players aren't all going to be elite with the bat. Martin being the primary backup for 3B, and then spending extra on a better back up catcher, could be a viable alternative to getting a decent middle infielder who can also play 3B (we're obviously not going to spend significantly on a specialist back up 3B).

 

Eduardo Nunez seems like a really obvious fit. Can backup all the infield positions and he can play the corner outfield positions too. Hopefully he doesn't mind signing in Toronto because there's potentially a ton of playing time for him.

[Dick_Pole]

Yet this year Martin was arguably still the 2nd best option at 3B and his backup at catcher was uniformly useless.

 

We need more options for catcher / 3B / 2B / SS and realistically those players aren't all going to be elite with the bat. Martin being the primary backup for 3B, and then spending extra on a better back up catcher, could be a viable alternative to getting a decent middle infielder who can also play 3B (we're obviously not going to spend significantly on a specialist back up 3B).

 

I think this is easier said than done. Depending on a 35 yo who has played a handful of games at 2B/3B isn't really a sound strategy going into the season. Martin should really be #3/4 on the IF depth chart, a guy you really only put in there in a bind due to injuries or playing an 18 inning game.

 

I don't have much issue gifting the backup job to one of the two prospects, whoever comes out better during the spring. They can't be worse on the bat side than last year, as long as the glove is good. Even -0.5 WAR is a one win improvement from last year.

[Bobthe4th]

Eduardo Nunez seems like a really obvious fit. Can backup all the infield positions and he can play the corner outfield positions too. Hopefully he doesn't mind signing in Toronto because there's potentially a ton of playing time for him.

 

Yeah he's been linked a lot with us. I think he'd be a moderate upgrade on Barney (who is a now free agent) as his bat is only average but is still better than Barney's.

 

If Nunez signs elsewhere then that's when we may need to start to get creative with the roster.

[glory]

I don't think Nunez will sign with a team to be a back up. If the Jays gave him an everyday 2B job then I could see it (then slide him over to 3B in 2019 when JD bounces). I mean, being the utility infielder for the Jays basically is a starting spot given how broken Travis and Tulo are every year, but you would have to sell players on that, and I'm not sure it will work with anyone half decent.

 

If the Jays want a Zobrist type, then they are going to have to identify one before he turns into a Zobrist type. So find some blocked/underachieving-but-talented young player on another team and pour some high performance department magic on them. Find a Jean Segura pre-2016 type somewhere who needs a chance of scenery.