Toronto Blue Jays Rebuilding Thread

[Dick_Pole]

I'm starting to wonder if bringing both Estrada and Liriano back on cheap one year deals is possible. The Jays literally have nothing in the way of pitching prospects that are ready for 2018. I mean if you can't trade them then maybe bringing them back is a better use of them as assets (assuming the price is ok).

 

Or use the money saved to get other players who can provide more than half a WAR value for $25M. You seem to have this strange obsession with getting "value" out of everyone. You're not the only one by any means so I'm not trying to single you out. Look if there's no trade to be had for Estrada and he walks (or retires) next year, that's just the way the cookie crumbles. Whatever marginal returns Lucroy got, Estrada is getting less than that.

 

The Jays already got value out of Liriano, picking up two prospects for a salary dump and holding down the Orioles long enough for Showalter to f*** up game #163.

[G-Snarls]

I'm starting to wonder if bringing both Estrada and Liriano back on cheap one year deals is possible. The Jays literally have nothing in the way of pitching prospects that are ready for 2018. I mean if you can't trade them then maybe bringing them back is a better use of them as assets (assuming the price is ok).

 

True

 

Even though Connor Greene told me in March that he hoped to be called up by now

 

Maybe next year...

[Spanky99]

True

 

Even though Connor Greene told me in March that he hoped to be called up by now

 

Maybe next year...

 

It's just filling out our rotation, it's fine with upside. Greene isn't close. He can improve, people's deadline expectations are absurd.

[glory]

You seem to have this strange obsession with getting "value" out of everyone.

 

You want the Jays to go for it next year when they are old as s*** and their system is still realistically a couple of years away from producing talent , I get that. But that makes getting value all the more important. If you let Estrada and Liriano go for nothing, sure, you live with it. They aren't major assets in a trade right now. But you're not going to get FA pitching cheaply, and the one benefit to keeping those guys might be working out a deal for next year. Otherwise what's the f***ing point? Trade one of them for Glenn Sparkman and the other for DJ Davis' bastardized clone in another org and call it a day. At least it's something. I'll take a lottery ticket over nothing. A team with a 40 man roster crunch next year may give up something (even a Refsynder equivalent works for me).

 

Fast forward a year from now and JD is a free agent. I hope you are on my side of the "value" camp with him if he's a trade chip next year.

Edited July 31, 2017 by glory

[Spanky99]

You want the Jays to go for it next year when they are old as s*** and their system is still realistically a couple of years away from producing talent , I get that. But that makes getting value all the more important. If you let Estrada and Liriano go for nothing, sure, you live with it. They aren't major assets in a trade right now. But you're not going to get FA pitching cheaply, and the one benefit to keeping those guys might be working out a deal for next year. Otherwise what's the f***ing point? Trade one of them for Glenn Sparkman and the other for DJ Davis' bastardized cousin in another org and call it a day. At least it's something. I'll take a lottery ticket over nothing.

 

Fast forward a year from now and JD is a free agent. I hope you are on my side of the "value" camp with him if he's a trade chip next year.

Ewwww...

[jaysblue]

I'm starting to wonder if bringing both Estrada and Liriano back on cheap one year deals is possible. The Jays literally have nothing in the way of pitching prospects that are ready for 2018. I mean if you can't trade them then maybe bringing them back is a better use of them as assets (assuming the price is ok).

 

Obviously you would like the Jays to get someone better than Estrada or Liriano for next season, though if you can't upgrade the rotation then I don't have an issue with bringing back Estrada or Liriano on a cheap one-year contract as the No. 4 and 5 starters.

[jaysblue]

In a world where Lucroy nets a PTBNL, the Jays are better off as buyers than sellers anyways.

 

Interesting point. I'm sure if the Jays wanted to, they could make some upgrades to the roster without breaking the bank in terms of prospects. Perhaps a middle infielder like Lowrie, Cozart, Kinsler, Phillips, or Walker wouldn't cost that much. If you could add one of those players, it's a huge upgrade over Goins or Barney. Even add another arm who is better than Valdez shouldn't be that difficult.

[KingKat]

Interesting point. I'm sure if the Jays wanted to, they could make some upgrades to the roster without breaking the bank in terms of prospects. Perhaps a middle infielder like Lowrie, Cozart, Kinsler, Phillips, or Walker wouldn't cost that much. If you could add one of those players, it's a huge upgrade over Goins or Barney. Even add another arm who is better than Valdez shouldn't be that difficult.

 

If there was a MI you could control for 2018, that would be a no brainer. They need one for 2018 just as much or more as they need one now. With Tulo and Travis being who they are, you have to manage that MI as a three headed monster. I think you could justifiably critize Shatkins for not looking after it before the season started. If they had, maybe they could have let Travis rehab longer and had him come back at full strength rather than have him waste as many ABs as he did at the start of the season.

[jaysblue]

If there was a MI you could control for 2018, that would be a no brainer. They need one for 2018 just as much or more as they need one now. With Tulo and Travis being who they are, you have to manage that MI as a three headed monster. I think you could justifiably critize Shatkins for not looking after it before the season started. If they had, maybe they could have let Travis rehab longer and had him come back at full strength rather than have him waste as many ABs as he did at the start of the season.

 

Agree 100%. Only thing is I'm not sure they would be able to sign someone like Lowrie, Walker, Cozart etc. as a FA if they aren't guaranteed a starting job.

 

Ian Kinsler would probably be the prefect target IMO. He has a team option for 2018 at 10M (not sure if the option is still there if he's traded however). Detroit is looking to get younger, so they would move him and he likely wouldn't cost much. Even with his struggles offensively this season, he has posted 2 WAR to date. From 2014-2016, he's posted 5.2, 4.2 and 5.8 WAR seasons respectively during that time.

[Angrioter]

Tank

[glory]

Obviously you would like the Jays to get someone better than Estrada or Liriano for next season, though if you can't upgrade the rotation then I don't have an issue with bringing back Estrada or Liriano on a cheap one-year contract as the No. 4 and 5 starters.

 

Oh no question, aim higher than those guys. I don't even want them back necessarily. I'm just saying if they can't be traded, then one benefit might be trying to work something out with them since their market should be depressed and I don't see Shapiro spending money in the free agent SP market. They might be cheap enough to where they could be reasonable bounce back candidates if other options are unavailable/too expensive.

[Dick_Pole]

You want the Jays to go for it next year when they are old as s*** and their system is still realistically a couple of years away from producing talent , I get that. But that makes getting value all the more important. If you let Estrada and Liriano go for nothing, sure, you live with it. They aren't major assets in a trade right now. But you're not going to get FA pitching cheaply, and the one benefit to keeping those guys might be working out a deal for next year. Otherwise what's the f***ing point? Trade one of them for Glenn Sparkman and the other for DJ Davis' bastardized clone in another org and call it a day. At least it's something. I'll take a lottery ticket over nothing. A team with a 40 man roster crunch next year may give up something (even a Refsynder equivalent works for me).

 

Fast forward a year from now and JD is a free agent. I hope you are on my side of the "value" camp with him if he's a trade chip next year.

 

I want the Jays to take the side of market efficiency. If the price for retirement home talent is a PTBNL, you might as well keep all of yours and go fishing for others.

 

Flip it around, if someone like Lucroy goes for DJ Davis' bastardized clone now, you might as well trade your DJ Davis for the rental. Unless the mystery player turns out to be a legit prospect, the Rockies got an absolute steal. Even if Lucroy continues to suck ass below his projections it was still worth a shot.

[glory]

I want the Jays to take the side of market efficiency. If the price for retirement home talent is a PTBNL, you might as well keep all of yours and go fishing for others.

 

Flip it around, if someone like Lucroy goes for DJ Davis' bastardized clone now, you might as well trade your DJ Davis for the rental. Unless the mystery player turns out to be a legit prospect, the Rockies got an absolute steal. Even if Lucroy continues to suck ass below his projections it was still worth a shot.

 

Sure, if the Jays were in the race right now, then it would be a good time to be a buyer. It's clearly a bad time to be a seller of struggling vets (if there is ever a good time). I just want there to be some upside to either trading the player or keeping him, and that's even more important if the Jays want to go for another run next season because assets are movable. Say what you want about Harold Ramirez and Reese McGuire, but you can move those guys if need be. Quantity can be an asset for a farm system, as long as it's not at the expense of quality. If the Jays got Sparkman for Liriano, and then Sparkman turns into even a middle reliever, that's an asset. It's worth something, even if very little. But letting Liriano and Estrada go for nothing, while a perfectly likely scenario with how the market has played out this deadline and how bad both players have been, would be pretty disappointing all things considered. It wouldn't be the end of the world if they left for nothing, but I'm in the camp of "something is better than nothing".

[Slade]

Dream scenario today is Kendry Morales is traded. He's been producing lately but he just doesn't fit this team we need to have flexibility at the DH with all these old, slow or bad defenders.

 

Not really too concerned with Estrada or Liriano, best case scenario there is we get a lottery ticket prospect.

[Dick_Pole]

Sure, if the Jays were in the race right now, then it would be a good time to be a buyer. It's clearly a bad time to be a seller of struggling vets (if there is ever a good time). I just want there to be some upside to either trading the player or keeping him, and that's even more important if the Jays want to go for another run next season because assets are movable. Say what you want about Harold Ramirez and Reese McGuire, but you can move those guys if need be. Quantity can be an asset for a farm system, as long as it's not at the expense of quality. If the Jays got Sparkman for Liriano, and then Sparkman turns into even a middle reliever, that's an asset. It's worth something, even if very little. But letting Liriano and Estrada go for nothing, while a perfectly likely scenario with how the market has played out this deadline and how bad both players have been, would be pretty disappointing all things considered. It wouldn't be the end of the world if they left for nothing, but I'm in the camp of "something is better than nothing".

 

I'm of the opinion if the Jays have the ability to turn someone like Sparkman into a serviceable reliever, they can turn anyone into a serviceable reliever, including those who cost nothing, not even a rental player.

[BTS]

I'll be pretty disappointed if the team doesn't at least unload Joe Smith today. Preferably also Estrada and Liriano.

[flafson]

I'll be pretty disappointed if the team doesn't at least unload Joe Smith today. Preferably also Estrada and Liriano.

 

Smith, Estrada and Liriano were on the top 25 list yesterday but then again, Lucroy was number 7 on the list and they got peanuts for him...

[glory]

Yeah there is no excuse for Smith to still be on this team tomorrow. He has performed well and good RP's have value around this time. I can understand teams not giving up value for Estrada, Liriano, and Jose, but Smith is the perfect trade deadline pick up for someone.

[BTS]

Smith, Estrada and Liriano were on the top 25 list yesterday but then again, Lucroy was number 7 on the list and they got peanuts for him...

 

I think Liriano is worth nothing, but even it's just a few million in salary relief I'd dump him. I'd expect Estrada to return at least 1-2 low end guys with at least some plausible upside (while freeing up more money). Joe Smith should actually return a real prospect. Not a top-100 guy or anything, but someone who is actually talented.

[Rusty_Savage]

Packaging Estrada and Smith together may be the way to go. Wilson and Avilia would probably net younsomething of pretty good value.

[Bobthe4th]

I think Liriano is worth nothing, but even it's just a few million in salary relief I'd dump him. I'd expect Estrada to return at least 1-2 low end guys with at least some plausible upside (while freeing up more money). Joe Smith should actually return a real prospect. Not a top-100 guy or anything, but someone who is actually talented.

 

None of them are going to be worth much, but I'd argue that Liriano - as a left hander and someone who a playoff team could use as a long reliever - has slightly more trade value than Estrada considering Marco's recent troubles.

[Slade]

The Mets are getting three minor-leaguers from Boston in return for Addison Reed.

 

So definitely need to trade Joe Smith.

[Daniel Labude]

The Mets are getting three minor-leaguers from Boston in return for Addison Reed.

 

So definitely need to trade Joe Smith.

 

Yep, but the clock is ticking and just silence so far....I'd laugh if we end of trading Donaldson and that's it...in a surprise at the last second deal lol

[G-Snarls]

[G-Snarls]

Bautista will get nothing but 1 year deals the rest of his career

[Jimcanuck]

So we are believers in Smoak? 30 yrs old having a career year..... he's prime trade bait imo

[G-Snarls]

So... Jays aren't doing anything today are they

[jaysblue]

So we are believers in Smoak? 30 yrs old having a career year..... he's prime trade bait imo

 

I would think so, the Jays don't really have a choice. It's not like the 29 other GM's are going to trade a boat load to acquire Smoak for the reasons you just mentioned. We were saying the same thing about Bautista and EE during their first breakout seasons. Probably better just keeping Smoak IMO. As well, he has been consistent throughout the entire season thus far which is a positive. In comparison to other guys like Alonso who really has dropped off in June & July.

[Jimcanuck]

So... Jays aren't doing anything today are they

 

i'll lose some faith in shatkins if they do nothing, there are some guys it makes no sense to keep regardless of the market

[jaysblue]

So... Jays aren't doing anything today are they

 

Liriano and Smith likely could be moved later on closer to the 4PM deadline. I'm sure for teams looking to add, guys like Liriano and Smith are a Plan B, so wouldn't shock me if you had teams turning to them later in the afternoon.