Around Baseball 2017

[Angrioter]

He's your nephew, neat?

 

My little brother' nephew

[Jimcanuck]

throwing out something different, has there been any chatter about going back to a 4 man rotation, now that teams are averse to their starters going through a lineup a 3rd time and the average IP/start has dropped below 6 innings?

 

there's also, the general lack of good starters to consider

[Spanky99]

To be fair to the Braves, AA was likely going to trade 75% of the prospects they lost anyway. Just now they lose them for nothing instead of getting overpriced 30 somethings in return. /throwing shade at Alex.

 

But seriously, that is a stiff penalty, and I agree it was with Ohtani in mind. I guess unless they implement an international draft, this type of stuff was bound to happen. Braves just got caught.

 

I read just the other day the new regime, Alex, didn't like Maitan, he just can't trade some of these guys now.

[Spanky99]

My little brother' nephew

 

So your nephew, lol.

[Cleveland Steamer]

So your nephew, lol.

 

Maybe it’s his step brother. Ever think of that?

[Spanky99]

Ya I was listening as well, it seems like John wasn't well liked in the org and a few employees with knowledge/involvement of the infractions "ratted" on him.

 

Sux to get burned like that....

 

Meh, that's what happens for being an *******, lol.

[Spanky99]

Maybe it’s his step brother. Ever think of that?

 

f*** off, ya f***ing troglodyte!

[Cleveland Steamer]

f*** off, ya f***ing troglodyte!

Been mixing pills and booze again?

[P2F]

f*** off, ya f***ing troglodyte!

 

I put him on ignore. Feels good, man.

[Spanky99]

I put him on ignore. Feels good, man.

 

I did too, until the pinned thread of the Doc.

 

I've ignored responses and the obvious trolling, but no one does anything about it.

 

Our Mods are pussies man... Hurl can't do anything cause he sticks by his word.

[TheHurl]

Jeff Passan... just insinuated that Copollela strong fisted his "underlings" to do unethical things, which led to the leak of the under table doings. Wow! - PTS

 

The Buscones are getting cut out, this will be interesting.

 

Believes there will be a massive change in the draft within 18 months, where all players will be eligible concerning the NPB/IFA's and MLB in the Rule 4 draft.

 

The stupid thing is that whatever happened is probably no worse than what the Buscones have been doing for years. Hopefully someone in DR/Venezuela (looking at you Ang) cashes in with TMZ and releases details about everything.

[Spanky99]

The stupid thing is that whatever happened is probably no worse than what the Buscones have been doing for years. Hopefully someone in DR/Venezuela (looking at you Ang) cashes in with TMZ and releases details about everything.

 

lol... exactly. Both his relatives have been caught, or is it just Bastardo?

[TheHurl]

So your nephew, lol.

 

Maybe Ang is part of the Big Brother program

[Cleveland Steamer]

Maybe Ang is part of the Big Brother program

Pretty much what I said.

[Cleveland Steamer]

Suck farts you rotten piece of s***, trip in traffic, I'll lol.

Eat my dick while you chew on your pills and pound back the booze.

[Cleveland Steamer]

Pfftttt... your Mangina?

You like eating dick? Probably goes down easier for you after ingesting all those pills.

[Cleveland Steamer]

You like that, in fantasy land, right?

Nope. I’ve just heard about you. People talk...

[Brownie19]

throwing out something different, has there been any chatter about going back to a 4 man rotation, now that teams are averse to their starters going through a lineup a 3rd time and the average IP/start has dropped below 6 innings?

 

there's also, the general lack of good starters to consider

 

This interesting thought just got buried in the s*** show.

[Spanky99]

This interesting thought just got buried in the s*** show.

 

lulz

[intentional wok]

throwing out something different, has there been any chatter about going back to a 4 man rotation, now that teams are averse to their starters going through a lineup a 3rd time and the average IP/start has dropped below 6 innings?

 

there's also, the general lack of good starters to consider

 

The bullpens would die, even with the extra arm replacing the fifth starter. Not to mention how many extra innings the dime-a-dozen RPs would be throwing. Can't use your best guys at such an increased rate. Even 70 IP is pushing it for some guys.

[Jimcanuck]

The bullpens would die, even with the extra arm replacing the fifth starter. Not to mention how many extra innings the dime-a-dozen RPs would be throwing. Can't use your best guys at such an increased rate. Even 70 IP is pushing it for some guys.

 

bullpens are dying already, which is why position players that can pitch is becoming a bit of a thing

 

with a 4 man rotation you don't need as much SP depth, so you can use your AAA depth (including the starters) more as RP depth and cycle them in and out

Edited November 22, 2017 by Jimcanuck

[intentional wok]

bullpens are dying already, which is why position players that can pitch is becoming a bit of a thing

 

with a 4 man rotation you don't need as much SP depth, so you can use your AAA depth (including the starters) more as RP depth and cycle them in and out

 

Sounds like a lot more moving s***** parts than to just chuck an experienced MLB innings eater out there. To use recent Blue Jay history as my example, I'd rather have RA Dickey out there for 170 innings than try to frankenstein some quality from the Todd Redmonds, Chad Jenkins, and Ryan Goinses of the world while also micromanaging every inning for my four starters because they're each now expected to start 8 more games a year.

 

40 starts @ 5 innings = 200 IP per starter

4 BP innings x 162 games = 648 IP with added emphasis on AAAA fodder and without counting extra innings.

[Jimcanuck]

Sounds like a lot more moving s***** parts than to just chuck an experienced MLB innings eater out there. To use recent Blue Jay history as my example, I'd rather have RA Dickey out there for 170 innings than try to frankenstein some quality from the Todd Redmonds, Chad Jenkins, and Ryan Goinses of the world while also micromanaging every inning for my four starters because they're each now expected to start 8 more games a year.

 

40 starts @ 5 innings = 200 IP per starter

4 BP innings x 162 games = 648 IP with added emphasis on AAAA fodder and without counting extra innings.

 

wouldnt work quite that way

 

teams already manage starter innings

 

there will be need for spot starts by another pitcher (doubleheaders, busy portions of schedule)

 

its a viable option, has its pros and cons just like the current approach

[intentional wok]

So spot starts by your swing guys, making the 650-IP bullpen even more fringy? And that's not even taking into account an extended DL trip for one of your four SP.

 

How do you know it's viable if it's never been done in the modern league?

[Boxcar]

bullpens are dying already, which is why position players that can pitch is becoming a bit of a thing

 

with a 4 man rotation you don't need as much SP depth, so you can use your AAA depth (including the starters) more as RP depth and cycle them in and out

 

When has position players pitching ever been a thing this or last century? Are you high?

[Jimcanuck]

When has position players pitching ever been a thing this or last century? Are you high?

 

It was in a fangraphs article the other day. Are you an *******? We all know the answer.

[Jimcanuck]

So spot starts by your swing guys, making the 650-IP bullpen even more fringy? And that's not even taking into account an extended DL trip for one of your four SP.

 

How do you know it's viable if it's never been done in the modern league?

 

Since i'll be home battling pneumonia the next few days with lots of time, I'll do some engineering on this, since you seen to be closed minded.

[intentional wok]

Since i'll be home battling pneumonia the next few days with lots of time, I'll do some engineering on this, since you seen to be closed minded.

 

I did some basic counting re: your radical idea and you brought nothing but I'm the closed-minded one. Alright man. Good to be back here.

 

EDIT

Here's more, in case the very idea of working with a foundation of 650 IP for a bullpen wasn't alarming enough. One of the worst teams in the league -- the Reds -- used its pen for 610 IP. And the Yankees -- best BP -- used ~540. You want to load 100 more IP thrown by AAA commuters on their backs when the alternative is just relying a bit on Sabathia?

[Brownie19]

Sounds like a lot more moving s***** parts than to just chuck an experienced MLB innings eater out there. To use recent Blue Jay history as my example, I'd rather have RA Dickey out there for 170 innings than try to frankenstein some quality from the Todd Redmonds, Chad Jenkins, and Ryan Goinses of the world while also micromanaging every inning for my four starters because they're each now expected to start 8 more games a year.

 

40 starts @ 5 innings = 200 IP per starter

4 BP innings x 162 games = 648 IP with added emphasis on AAAA fodder and without counting extra innings.

 

I'm sure you get this Wok, but for me, this idea is based on the thought that starting pitchers are throwing fewer innings these days because the #'s support that strategy (ie, don't let the starter face the lineup a 3rd time + drastic improvement in the quality of the middle reliever) vs. the idea that pitchers are throwing fewer innings because their bodies can't handle it. If that's true - then let them continue throwing less innings/start (which they are already doing) - but start them more frequently.

 

I think the premise with this strategy is you wouldn't necessarily be asking starters to throw even fewer innings/start (and thus adding innings to the bullpen). It's simply instead of having 5 guys average 5 innings per start (approx. 160 innings over 32 starts), have 4 guys average 5 innings per start (approx. 200 innings over 32 starts). That way the bullpen throws the same # of innings, but has an extra guy in it to help.

 

200 innings used to be a standard or goal for starting pitchers.

 

In 2010, 45 starters reached 200 innings. In 2017, only 15 did.

In 2010, 63 starters reached 190 innings. In 2017, only 19 did.

In 2010, 73 pitchers reached 180 innings. In 2017, only 35 did.

 

If this trend is all about strategy - and not about health, then this is a legit thought. Unfortunately, I fully suspect it's a bit of column A and a bit of column B - which clouds the situation. The other obvious issue is when you have an Ace who can go through the lineup a third time.....you can't have him throw 7 or 8 innings and then pitch again on 4 days rest. You'd probably need some swing man, or AAA starter that could spot start when needed...

 

I don't think it's a terrible thought - interesting to discuss, yet unlikely we ever see it.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Brownie19

[Jimcanuck]

I'm sure you get this Wok, but for me, this idea is based on the thought that starting pitchers are throwing fewer innings these days because the #'s support that strategy (ie, don't let the starter face the lineup a 3rd time + drastic improvement in the quality of the middle reliever) vs. the idea that pitchers are throwing fewer innings because their bodies can't handle it. If that's true - then let them continue throwing less innings/start (which they are already doing) - but start them more frequently.

 

I think the premise with this strategy is you wouldn't necessarily be asking starters to throw even fewer innings/start (and thus adding innings to the bullpen). It's simply instead of having 5 guys average 5 innings per start (approx. 160 innings over 32 starts), have 4 guys average 5 innings per start (approx. 200 innings over 32 starts). That way the bullpen throws the same # of innings, but has an extra guy in it to help.

 

200 innings used to be a standard or goal for starting pitchers.

 

In 2010, 45 starters reached 200 innings. In 2017, only 15 did.

In 2010, 63 starters reached 190 innings. In 2017, only 19 did.

In 2010, 73 pitchers reached 180 innings. In 2017, only 35 did.

 

If this trend is all about strategy - and not about health, then this is a legit thought. Unfortunately, I fully suspect it's a bit of column A and a bit of column B - which clouds the situation. The other obvious issue is when you have an Ace who can go through the lineup a third time.....you can't have him throw 7 or 8 innings and then pitch again on 4 days rest. You'd probably need some swing man, or AAA starter that could spot start when needed...

 

I don't think it's a terrible thought - interesting to discuss, yet unlikely we ever see it.

 

This is pretty much it, well expressed. If we want to get numerical about it, and I might do the math but the value my time for zero reward says probably not........ starter FIP increases from inning to inning. Strictly on that basis to win more games (minimize team FIP) there is an average optimum where the hook should occur. Then, furthering the math, since a starter's early innings FIP are lower then the later innings, the more games they start, the more often you gain the value of these low FIP early innings. The numbers can be crunched to see which is expected to give a lower team FIP, 4 man or 5 man rotation.

 

And it wouldn't be a strict 4 man rotation. For the Jays for example, the regular rotation would be Stro, Sanchez, Happ, Cobb (?) then you have Estrada in the pen who can spot start and Biagini in Buffalo available. So its a more fluid approach, and gaining the advantage of more starts from your high value pitchers.

 

Injury risk a separate topic entirely. I can see a argument that pitching with shorter rest and shorter pitch count (4 man) has less injury risk then longer rest and longer pitch count (5 man).