Around Baseball 2017

[LGBJ29]

I was super excited to get Tulo, he was a big upgrade on Reyes and Hoffman didn't look great at the time after coming back from Tommy John. The trade definitely looks bad in hindsight, but it was far from Anthopoulos' worst. That honor goes to either the Dickey trade, or the Marlins trade. Guy just kept trying to put a bandaid on everything.

 

I can live with the Tulo trade in that I got to see one of my favourite players in a Blue Jays uni even if he's not as good as he used to be. It's also nice having a solid defensive SS for a change

 

This is the argument I've made over the last 2 pages in a nutshell

[Bobthe4th]

I think it probably happens without the Tulo trade. I don't mind the Price trade so much - getting a legit ace for the stretch and the playoffs is a valid move, and he wasn't tied to an albatross contract. Adding Tulo's $100M contract was just irresponsible.

 

I doubt it. I don't think you can separate the trades, we went all in. Once one trade was made, the other had to be. Reyes was a black hole on defense at SS and was going to cost us important games in the run in.

[SpectralGas]

I think it probably happens without the Tulo trade. I don't mind the Price trade so much - getting a legit ace for the stretch and the playoffs is a valid move, and he wasn't tied to an albatross contract. Adding Tulo's $100M contract was just irresponsible.

 

Agreed...I love Tulo but he is not the same guy as in Chicago, really not a necessary trade all things considered.

[Bobthe4th]

At the time of the Tulo trade:

 

East

NYY 57 42 .576 --

BAL 50 49 .505 7.0

TBR 51 51 .500 7.5

TOR 50 51 .495 8.0

BOS 44 57 .436 14.0

 

Wild Card

LAA 55 44 .556 --

MIN 52 47 .525 --

BAL 50 49 .505 2.0

TBR 51 51 .500 2.5

TOR 50 51 .495 3.0

 

Yes the Jays had a huge run differential that showed that they were much better than their record showed, but they looked far more likely to get a WC spot at that time than the division.

 

Those two trades (Price/Tulo) were short sighted trades by a GM who did not have to deal with the consequences because he knew he was out the moment the season ended.

 

Those trades also turned us in to one of the best teams in baseball for 2 seasons, gave us the best Blue Jays season in 20 years, and has left us two years later in a position where we can still make the playoffs via the wildcard and have enough good young players and prospects that a full rebuild isn't necessary.

 

It was a gamble - and you're right without AA's contract situation it would never had happened - but that gamble worked.

[LGBJ29]

Agreed...I love Tulo but he is not the same guy as in Chicago, really not a necessary trade all things considered.

 

so true

[Brownie19]

You also have to factor in that Tulowitzki was looking like s*** the entire half season he spent in Colorado before we acquired him, on top of being an aging SS with a terrible injury history and a monstrosity of a contract. I'm well aware what the risk of prospects is; I'm also aware that every former great player who is struggling isn't simply "in a slump", which is why you have to target more sure-fire players like Adam Eaton if you are trading A-grade prospects. Anthopolous seemed to have a raging hard-on for former star players who were already in decline under the pretense that it was all just a "slump". If you remember we were also tracking McCutchen under his "team", you just know that had he stayed he would have done something stupid like traded Vlad Jr. to get McCutchen under the notion that he was "buying low".

 

Again, it was simply poor asset management. We got poor value, period. Tulo barely outproduced his salary in the ~1.5 years prior to this season; and we're on the hook for ~$78 more million counting this year of value that may not even be REPLACEMENT LEVEL. He's at -0.3 WAR so far this season.

 

Jesus f*** - we traded for him midway through the 2015 season. In 2014 his wRC+ was 170 and he was a 5 WAR player in 91 games.

 

There was clearly a chance that with a change of scenery that he would be SIGNIFICANTLY better than what we've gotten. You also have to factor in that we gave up a declining player on a massive contract as well, which helps cancel out the risk. You can pretend you knew Tulo was going to be a replacement level player and Hoffman wasn't going to bust - but the reality is that's a farce. There were a plethora of possible outcomes with respect to the Tulo/Hoffman deal - most of which NOBODY could have predicted. It just appears we're going to come out on the s*** end of this one.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Brownie19

[Bobthe4th]

While this is certainly true, 2015 was the most fun I've ever had watching baseball. None of that happens without those reckless trades. I was happy then and I wouldn't trade that for a slightly better farm now. We're in great shape is it is.

 

Yeah exactly. If we still had Hoffman and Norris now but had missed the playoffs the last two years we'd be half way through a rebuild as the new FO office would have torn it down completely.

[Maahfaace]

I still have faith Tulo will start hitting this year, even if it's blind faith. But even if he doesn't, he's still pretty to look at.

[BTS]

I doubt it. I don't think you can separate the trades, we went all in. Once one trade was made, the other had to be. Reyes was a black hole on defense at SS and was going to cost us important games in the run in.

 

I think this is very sloppy thinking.

[SpectralGas]

so true

 

LOL i'm dum. Brain thinks one thing, hands type another. Bad hand.

[BTS]

Jesus f*** - we traded for midway through the 2015 season. In 2014 his wRC+ was 170 and he was a 5 WAR player in 91 games.

 

There was clearly a chance that with a change of scenery that he would be SIGNIFICANTLY better than what we've gotten. You also have to factor in that we gave up a declining player on a massive contract as well, which helps cancel out the risk. You can pretend you knew Tulo was going to be a replacement level player and Hoffman wasn't going to bust - but the reality is that's a farce. There were a plethora of possible outcomes with respect to the Tulo/Hoffman deal - most of which NOBODY could have predicted. It just appears we're going to come out on the s*** end of this one.

 

He had major hip surgery end his 2014, then returned looking like a shell of himself, then the Rockies decided to move him with a fair bit of urgency. There was lots of reason to be concerned that 2015 Tulo was the new Tulo, and those concerns are proving to be reality.

[Orgfiller]

so true

 

Hey, the guy has a 1.075 OPS at CWS and .828 OPS at Wrigley in his career. He ain't wrong.

[metafour]

Jesus f*** - we traded for midway through the 2015 season. In 2014 his wRC+ was 170 and he was a 5 WAR player in 91 games.

 

There was clearly a chance that with a change of scenery that he would be SIGNIFICANTLY better than what we've gotten. You also have to factor in that we gave up a declining player on a massive contract as well, which helps cancel out the risk. You can pretend you knew Tulo was going to be a replacement level player and Hoffman wasn't going to bust - but the reality is that's a farce. There were a plethora of possible outcomes with respect to the Tulo/Hoffman deal - most of which NOBODY could have predicted. It just appears we're going to come out on the s*** end of this one.

 

I'm not pretending anything, I vocally hated acquiring a SS who you KNEW you'd be paying out the ass for the bad years of his inflated contract after Colorado sucked all his elite years dry. I even publicly stated that there was a high probability with that trade that we were doing nothing but rolling back a few years on Reyes before Tulowitzki became a similarly useless dead-weight contract. None of this is surprising to me; you think the rate of shortstops staying elite into their mid 30's is high? Tulowitzki had a million injuries in Colorado as well so its not even remotely surprising that his offensive decline happened faster than normal.

 

Again, just look at the baseline of that trade: we acquired a SS that was going to cost us $98 million from ages 31-36, knowing full well that most of those years were going to be decline years. You may have a different opinion, but I am never in favour of paying top assets so that another team can pawn off the hilariously overpriced years of an injury riddled player at a position that doesn't exude typical longevity.

[Jimcanuck]

Might as well add my two cents

 

As I stated at the time, I wasn't in favour of the Tulo trade, but was not strongly so. Moving 3 promising pitching prospects (and one a potential front line starter) in order to replace Reyes with Tulo was a very poor move value wise. As I posted back then, chances were (and coming true now) is at least one of those pitching prospects would become an above average MLB starter.

 

I get the flags fly forever argument which is why the opposition at the time was muted, but many of us knew this trade would bite us hard in the ass long term.

[jaysfan2014]

Tough breaks for the Yankees--Sabathia was just recently DLed with hamstring issues (out 4 weeks), and now Aaron Hicks, a breakout player for the Yanks this season, will be joining him after suffering an Achilles tendon injury.. Mason Williams is on his way to join the Yankees in Oakland.. it's a tough loss if Hicks ends up missing time, as he's one of New York's best players not named Aaron Judge..

[G-Snarls]

Tough breaks for the Yankees--Sabathia was just recently DLed with hamstring issues (out 4 weeks), and now Aaron Hicks, a breakout player for the Yanks this season, will be joining him after suffering an Achilles tendon injury.. Mason Williams is on his way to join the Yankees in Oakland.. it's a tough loss if Hicks ends up missing time, as he's one of New York's best players not named Aaron Judge..

 

Yikes

 

Can we play them again now please???

[burlingtonbandit]

One thing that seems to be overlooked in the Tulo trade is they got rid of $50 Million in dead money in Reyes. Thats a pretty f***ing big part of the trade. No one else was taking that contract at the time.

[G-Snarls]

One thing that seems to be overlooked in the Tulo trade is they got rid of $50 Million in dead money in Reyes. Thats a pretty f***ing big part of the trade. No one else was taking that contract at the time.

 

Yes, you have to subtract that from the Tulo salary to help figure out value.

 

QWe weren't trading Reyes anywhere without taking on a big contact (or paying a big chunk of Reyes' salary ourselves)

[Brownie19]

I'm not pretending anything, I vocally hated acquiring a SS who you KNEW you'd be paying out the ass for the bad years of his inflated contract after Colorado sucked all his elite years dry. I even publicly stated that there was a high probability with that trade that we were doing nothing but rolling back a few years on Reyes before Tulowitzki became a similarly useless dead-weight contract. None of this is surprising to me; you think the rate of shortstops staying elite into their mid 30's is high? Tulowitzki had a million injuries in Colorado as well so its not even remotely surprising that his offensive decline happened faster than normal.

 

Again, just look at the baseline of that trade: we acquired a SS that was going to cost us $98 million from ages 31-36, knowing full well that most of those years were going to be decline years. You may have a different opinion, but I am never in favour of paying top assets so that another team can pawn off the hilariously overpriced years of an injury riddled player at a position that doesn't exude typical longevity.

 

Well then you're my f***ing hero pal. Congrats. Go buy yourself a lollipop and take the rest of the day off. Between this and the draft day debates, you've firmly established yourself as the most insufferable person on this board.

[G-Snarls]

Listening to Terry Francona on MLB Network

 

f*** I love this man

 

Smart

 

Thoughtful

 

Says all the right things about lineup construction

 

Humble

 

Gives all the credit to the players but obviously gets the game and makes the most of his guys.

 

Admits when he made a mistake. Says the last runs off Miller were his fault for misusing him

[SpectralGas]

Listening to Terry Francona on MLB Network

 

f*** I love this man

 

Smart

 

Thoughtful

 

Says all the right things about lineup construction

 

Humble

 

Gives all the credit to the players but obviously gets the game and makes the most of his guys.

 

Admits when he made a mistake. Says the last runs off Miller were his fault for misusing him

 

 

He is a great manager, wish we had him.

[Boxcar]

Listening to Terry Francona on MLB Network

 

f*** I love this man

 

Smart

 

Thoughtful

 

Says all the right things about lineup construction

 

Humble

 

Gives all the credit to the players but obviously gets the game and makes the most of his guys.

 

Admits when he made a mistake. Says the last runs off Miller were his fault for misusing him

 

Gibby is funny as f*** though. Not sure I'd trade. Managers are so unimpactful that I'd rather have a guy that still entertains even while we're losing.

[SpectralGas]

Gibby is funny as f*** though. Not sure I'd trade. Managers are so unimpactful that I'd rather have a guy that still entertains even while we're losing.

 

lol true, Gibby is great for some entertainment. Heck he was even fighting players at one point.

[glory]

One thing that seems to be overlooked in the Tulo trade is they got rid of $50 Million in dead money in Reyes. Thats a pretty f***ing big part of the trade. No one else was taking that contract at the time.

 

Unfortunately, the Jays might be looking at $58m of deadweight in 2018-2020 from Tulo (plus whatever he's making this season to be below replacement level). Shapiro will have a huge hurdle having to move that contract, but at least we know he won't trade top prospects to get a worse contract back this time around. If anything, he'll have to eat up a large chunk of it and accept little in return.

[burlingtonbandit]

Unfortunately, the Jays might be looking at $58m of deadweight in 2018-2020 from Tulo (plus whatever he's making this season to be below replacement level). Shapiro will have a huge hurdle having to move that contract, but at least we know he won't trade top prospects to get a worse contract back this time around. If anything, he'll have to eat up a large chunk of it and accept little in return.

 

I'll take the over on Tulo having 0 WAR for the next 3 years lol. He's struggled this year for sure but last year with some batted ball luck he was a 4 Win player.

 

I do think his leadership skills provide value that is beyond the numbers too.

[baubau]

I'll take the over on Tulo having 0 WAR for the next 3 years lol. He's struggled this year for sure but last year with some batted ball luck he was a 4 Win player.

 

I do think his leadership skills provide value that is beyond the numbers too.

 

Plus having his son, Taz, grow up with the team will pay dividends in 2029ish when the Jay's draft him. There is a f(uture) WAR value here!

 

/terrible jokes

[vdubmvp]

Plus having his son, Taz, grow up with the team will pay dividends in 2029ish when the Jay's draft him. There is a f(uture) WAR value here!

 

/terrible jokes

 

This post probably warrants a ban.

[Boxcar]

This post probably warrants a ban.

 

Yeah, just try convincing all the braindead pun enthusiasts.

[TheHurl]

Yeah, just try convincing all the braindead pun enthusiasts.

 

[Angrioter]

Plus having his son, Taz, grow up with the team will pay dividends in 2029ish when the Jay's draft him. There is a f(uture) WAR value here!

 

/terrible jokes

 

That was a decent joke.

Tulo is horribad right now.