GDT - Rays @ Blue Jays (3/3) - The End of Days Thread

[THANOS]

So when Travis is eventually activated it has to be Goins going to AAA right?

 

You'd hope so, but I'm not sure it happens.

[Dick_Pole]

While many feel like we got scammed in the Dickey trade, I disagree. That's just how prospect trades go.

 

The Martin signing however...we basically got excited with his ability to draw walks and frame pitches?

 

I'm a defender more than a detractor of AA's but the one unforgivable sin of his to me was the handling of the catcher situation between off-season 2012 to 2015. If all else was the same but he had at least kept status quo on the team's excellent catcher depth the Jays would have Gomes and d'Arnaud for one-tenth of the salary commitment. He turned a position of great depth into one where the Jays needed to spend a fortune just to field a catcher with a pulse.

 

I know, I know...no one saw Yan Gomes' rise coming. But that's because we were focused on d'Arnaud at the time thinking he's the man the team is going with. The f***ing guy shipped out those two and Mathis and brought in "knuckleball specialist" Thole in the span of 6 weeks. Totally incompetent bumbling of the position.

[Governator]

While many feel like we got scammed in the Dickey trade, I disagree. That's just how prospect trades go.

 

The Martin signing however...we basically got excited with his ability to draw walks and frame pitches?

 

 

Martin didn't cost prospects and we never get a good free agent to sign here, that alone was exciting lol. He had also been a team leader, someone who's actually been to the post season many times and worked with younger pitchers like he did with Gerritt Cole (same age as Stroman). All that fun clubhouse stuff that can't be evaluated with number crunching. He also put up 9.1 WAR the 2 seasons prior with the Pirates with a 140 wRC+ in 2014. There was a lot to be excited about including penciling him in over Navarro who everyone felt was a solid back up and never a great starting option.

[baloojayz]

I'm a defender more than a detractor of AA's but the one unforgivable sin of his to me was the handling of the catcher situation between off-season 2012 to 2015. If all else was the same but he had at least kept status quo on the team's excellent catcher depth the Jays would have Gomes and d'Arnaud for one-tenth of the salary commitment. He turned a position of great depth into one where the Jays needed to spend a fortune just to field a catcher with a pulse.

 

I know, I know...no one saw Yan Gomes' rise coming. But that's because we were focused on d'Arnaud at the time thinking he's the man the team is going with. The f***ing guy shipped out those two and Mathis and brought in "knuckleball specialist" Thole in the span of 6 weeks. Totally incompetent bumbling of the position.

 

Yup 100% with you there.

 

Martin didn't cost prospects and we never get a good free agent to sign here, that alone was exciting lol. He had also been a team leader, someone who's actually been to the post season many times and worked with younger pitchers like he did with Gerritt Cole (same age as Stroman). All that fun clubhouse stuff that can't be evaluated with number crunching. He also put up 9.1 WAR the 2 seasons prior with the Pirates with a 140 wRC+ in 2014. There was a lot to be excited about including penciling him in over Navarro who everyone felt was a solid back up and never a great starting option.

 

Also I think I should add Martin's performance this season has nothing to do with my post. I just see value differently and think it really sucks that we are gonna let JB and EE walk b/c of bad contracts. If you remember the Martin signing came out of nowhere and Navarro was pissed (he had a semi-decent year). That's 10M we could be using elsewhere (bullpen). AA thought he would fix the whole pitching staff by signing Martin.

[John_Havok]

I have annihilated you twice already. Apparently you are a gluten for punishment.

 

Gluten? Heh, best typo ever

[Governator]

Yup 100% with you there.

 

 

 

Also I think I should add Martin's performance this season has nothing to do with my post. I just see value differently and think it really sucks that we are gonna let JB and EE walk b/c of bad contracts. If you remember the Martin signing came out of nowhere and Navarro was pissed (he had a semi-decent year). That's 10M we could be using elsewhere (bullpen). AA thought he would fix the whole pitching staff by signing Martin.

 

I don't think that's true, I think he f***ed himself giving away his catching prospects when he realized Navarro was never the answer. AA was trying to build a winning team, he was in win now mode or lose his job. The original plan was to then move Navarro for BP help which evidently we had no biters though I think everyone felt it was a good plan. I think he came very close to moving him, there was months of trade rumours.

[glory]

I'm a defender more than a detractor of AA's but the one unforgivable sin of his to me was the handling of the catcher situation between off-season 2012 to 2015. If all else was the same but he had at least kept status quo on the team's excellent catcher depth the Jays would have Gomes and d'Arnaud for one-tenth of the salary commitment. He turned a position of great depth into one where the Jays needed to spend a fortune just to field a catcher with a pulse.

 

I know, I know...no one saw Yan Gomes' rise coming. But that's because we were focused on d'Arnaud at the time thinking he's the man the team is going with. The f***ing guy shipped out those two and Mathis and brought in "knuckleball specialist" Thole in the span of 6 weeks. Totally incompetent bumbling of the position.

 

AA valued Gomes so little as a catcher that he had him playing all over the field (3B?). It was Kevin Cash who was in the Jays org, went to Cleveland after 2012 and suggested to acquire him, if I recall correctly. JPA was AA's future CA despite being a s***** hitter and defensive player. Then, when framing started to become more recognized, AA spent $82M to get a catcher in his 30's to do something Gomes (or d'Arnaud) would have done for the league minimum. Now, one year after signing Martin, framing is no longer undervalued, so Martin's deal looks unmovable and his framing numbers are no longer as impressive.

 

The whole f***ing thing is sad.

[burlingtonbandit]

Holy f*** why is it that every bad move AA made everyone feels the need to post countless times how he screwed up. Guess what? Every GM makes bad moves including the good ones.

 

Sure the Gomes and Dickey trades look terrible but he also acquired an MVP for 4 years in Donaldson while giving up barely anything. Other moves like the Travis, Saunders and Price trade look really good too yet no one is posting that over and over again.

[glory]

Holy f*** why is it that every bad move AA made everyone feels the need to post countless times how he screwed up. Guess what? Every GM makes bad moves including the good ones.

 

Sure the Gomes and Dickey trades look terrible but he also acquired an MVP for 4 years in Donaldson while giving up barely anything. Other moves like the Travis, Saunders and Price trade look really good too yet no one is posting that over and over again.

 

When the guy gets treated as a hero when he leaves despite leaving the new president/GM with an old roster and no farm system, it's fair game. If the hero worship/dick riding didn't exist, then maybe people would go easier on him.

[KingKat]

When the guy gets treated as a hero when he leaves despite leaving the new president/GM with an old roster and no farm system, it's fair game. If the hero worship/dick riding didn't exist, then maybe people would go easier on him.

 

Yeah AA may get a rough ride here but it's practically the only place. He's the prodigal son pretty much everywhere else.

[burlingtonbandit]

When the guy gets treated as a hero when he leaves despite leaving the new president/GM with an old roster and no farm system, it's fair game. If the hero worship/dick riding didn't exist, then maybe people would go easier on him.

 

Who on this board is treating him as a hero? 90% of the posts I see about him are all negative. The trades he made last year helped the team achieve one of the best seasons in franchise history even if their average age is on the older side. If you could go back in time everyone would make those trades again so I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

[Jimcanuck]

Who on this board is treating him as a hero? 90% of the posts I see about him are all negative. The trades he made last year helped the team achieve one of the best seasons in franchise history even if their average age is on the older side. If you could go back in time everyone would make those trades again so I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

 

Well that's certainly not true. Even the Donaldson trade, some (not me) thought Jays gave up too much at the time of the trade.

[burlingtonbandit]

Well that's certainly not true. Even the Donaldson trade, some (not me) thought Jays gave up too much at the time of the trade.

 

Knowing what happened last year you wouldn't the Donaldson or deadline deals we made last year?

[Jimcanuck]

Knowing what happened last year you wouldn't the Donaldson or deadline deals we made last year?

 

I'd do the JD trade every day.

 

Tulo trade I didn't like, not hindsight, I just expect 1, maybe 2 of the pitchers moved for Tulo to provide a lot of surplus value

 

Price trade was OK, was not impressed with the kid with the van

[burlingtonbandit]

I'd do the JD trade every day.

 

Tulo trade I didn't like, not hindsight, I just expect 1, maybe 2 of the pitchers moved for Tulo to provide a lot of surplus value

 

Price trade was OK, was not impressed with the kid with the van

 

Without the Tulo trade the Jays don't on that run though. Getting rid of Reyes's contract was a huge positive of that trade as well don't forget.

[Jimcanuck]

Without the Tulo trade the Jays don't on that run though. Getting rid of Reyes's contract was a huge positive of that trade as well don't forget.

 

i'm well aware of the trade details

[burlingtonbandit]

i'm well aware of the trade details

 

Surprised you would take Jeff Hoffman over the 3rd best season in franchise history.

[BTS]

Surprised you would take Jeff Hoffman over the 3rd best season in franchise history.

 

Maybe if they don't make the trade and have Tulo s*** the bed in the playoffs the team wins the WS.

[glory]

Who on this board is treating him as a hero? 90% of the posts I see about him are all negative. The trades he made last year helped the team achieve one of the best seasons in franchise history even if their average age is on the older side. If you could go back in time everyone would make those trades again so I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

 

Not many on this board (this forum is by far the best one out there), but everywhere else? It is (or was) very pro-AA. I don't see why his faults can't be brought up, especially when practically every big move he made since 2013, other than Donaldson, has been or will end up being a disaster (see Martin's contract). This team is in the shithole it is because of him. I said at the time, no one in 2017 is going to care about the 2015 playoffs if the team is s*****. 2015 is over. Reality has set in.

 

As far as the trades he made last year being ones "everyone would make", false. The Donaldson trade, absolutely. Tulo, Price, etc? It was conflicted at the time, and probably even moreso now.

[Jimcanuck]

Surprised you would take Jeff Hoffman over the 3rd best season in franchise history.

 

Miguel Castro is rocking a 12K/9 in 6 games out of the bullpen for the Rockies

[TheHurl]

Reminder to last year's low point. I'm sure I could bump 5 to 10 more days in 2015. When a not terrible team is terrible ball, it usually turns around.

[Spanky99]

I know this... or a great team lose a massive lead, in under 2 weeks. *Poop* FTW?

[Yippy]

Shapiro and Atkins haven't been in the media lately probably in hiding and for good reason

[fatcowxlive]

Shapiro and Atkins haven't been in the media lately probably in hiding and for good reason

 

Atkins did an interview with Jamie Campbell just this homestand...

[burlingtonbandit]

Miguel Castro is rocking a 12K/9 in 6 games out of the bullpen for the Rockies

 

Hows he doing now, Jim?