Wilner vs Pillar Twitter battle

[Grant77]

Exactly how I feel. LOL

 

White should have been hitting 9th

 

Henderson

Alomar

Molitor

 

Clearly should have been the 1-2-3

 

Just like with hitters, it's unfair and short sighted to compare managers from different eras. They had virtually no access to advanced concepts of lineup construction and if you guys don't think that almost every manager in 93 would have done the same thing, you are kidding yourselves.

[Olerud363]

Paul Molitor 6th, behind f***ing Joe Carter. Lol.

 

I'm really glad I didn't understand baseball in 92/93.

 

.420 .340 .400 .310 .470 .400 .360 .300 .280

 

Those are the approximate on base percentages. I am guessing the best lineup statistically would of been

 

Henderson Olerud Molitor Alomar Fernandez White Carter Sprague Borders

 

Weird lineup -- but I bet it would of scored the most runs... keep in mind Olerud had a .470 on base percentage... had the second best overall season in Jays history that year (behind Donaldson this year)

[Olerud363]

Just like with hitters, it's unfair and short sighted to compare managers from different eras. They had virtually no access to advanced concepts of lineup construction and if you guys don't think that almost every manager in 93 would have done the same thing, you are kidding yourselves.

 

No manager would have hit White 9th, no manager would of hit him second. 29/30 managers in 93 would of gone Henderson, Alomar, Molitor, Olerud, Carter, White, Fernandez, Sprague, Borders.

 

Cito is the only manager in 93 that played favourites and gave inferior hitters cushy lineup spots. You don't need advanced stats to figure out Henderson, Alomar, Molitor and Olerud need to be at the top.

 

Subsequently platooning Olerud after an 8 WAR season was indefensible, statistically, ethically, and morally. It was an insult to fans everywhere and set the franchise back years.

 

John Olerud 1993 - Jays all time batting champ and second best overall season ever (behind Donaldson)

John Olerud 1998 - Mets all time batting champ and second best overall season ever (behind one of David Wrights)

 

In between these two great 8 WAR seasons, Cito platooned Olerud, sat him against a righty for Jake Brumfield and drove him out of town because of Cito's stubborness, cruelty, and insecurities.

 

There is a reason Cito never got a job anywhere else.

[jays_fever]

Cito, Yost, Farrell, almost Gibbons, I really could care less about managers at this point.

 

Shawn Green bashing Cito years later was pretty funny

[King]

Cito, Yost, Farrell, almost Gibbons, I really could care less about managers at this point.

 

Shawn Green bashing Cito years later was pretty funny

 

uhh

[Dick_Pole]

Wasn't Alomar the one who batted 6th the most?

 

Confirmed. At least for Game 6 of the World Series.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/TOR/TOR199310230.shtml

 

I don't know why people are getting on Cito's case over Devo at the top of the lineup. He hit 108/109 OPS/RC+in 1993 which isn't exactly terrible. It's nowhere near the level of Mike McCoy batting lead off type of egregious error.

[jays_fever]

Is pointing out typos/ silly grammatical errors still a thing..

[King]

Yes

[Boxcar]

Is pointing out typos/ silly grammatical errors still a thing..

 

Don't put anything past King

[polar bear]

Exactly how I feel. LOL

 

White should have been hitting 9th

 

Henderson

Alomar

Molitor

 

Clearly should have been the 1-2-3

 

Cito could school Gibby on dumb moves.

[Olerud363]

Wasn't Alomar the one who batted 6th the most?

 

Confirmed. At least for Game 6 of the World Series.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/TOR/TOR199310230.shtml

 

I don't know why people are getting on Cito's case over Devo at the top of the lineup. He hit 108/109 OPS/RC+in 1993 which isn't exactly terrible. It's nowhere near the level of Mike McCoy batting lead off type of egregious error.

 

It's just that Olerud, Alomar, Molitor and then Henderson were so great.. (Henderson's small split with the Jays not withstanding).

 

If they had gone Alomar, Olerud, Molitor, Carter, White.... then put everyone back a step when Henderson arrived, Carter might of driven in 150 and white 100.

 

The RBIZZZ could of earned them a little more money given in 1993 rbbizz were still loved a bit more.

 

Instead Carter and White lost 20 rbizzz each cuzz they needed RESPECTS

 

Priorities 1993

 

1. RESPPECTS

2. Personal stats and winning

 

Yeah they won the World Series... but the subsequent 5 years were an absolute mess

[Olerud363]

Wasn't Alomar the one who batted 6th the most?

 

Confirmed. At least for Game 6 of the World Series.

 

 

It was a complicated and RESPECTFUL platoon. Molitor 6th against righties, Alomar 6th against lefties.. so Molitor ended up at 6th the most.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/TOR/TOR199310230.shtml

 

You do not understand the mind of Cito Gaston... Under no circumstances were Carter and or White to be disrespected, even if it resulted in the goofiest platoon in history.

[Krylian]

It was a complicated and RESPECTFUL platoon. Molitor 6th against righties, Alomar 6th against lefties.. so Molitor ended up at 6th the most.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/TOR/TOR199310230.shtml

 

You do not understand the mind of Cito Gaston... Under no circumstances were Carter and or White to be disrespected, even if it resulted in the goofiest platoon in history.

 

Cito was a terrible manager.

[Deadpool]

exactly how i feel. Lol

 

white should have been hitting 9th

 

henderson

alomar

molitor

 

clearly should have been the 1-2-3

 

hamco > wamco.

[Olerud363]

hamco > wamco.

 

hamoc > hamco

[Olerud363]

Cito was a terrible manager.

 

I think Cito had some real bad experiences as a young guy... horrible racist stuff. It affected him deeply and influenced a lot of his decisions.

 

Later in his career he was made a platoon player after one big season. A right handed platoon hitter... eventually got released, career fizzled out before he thought it should of.

 

So in the end he had a warm spot for players he thought weren't given respect. Guys like Carter, White, Jake Brumfield. Not only black guys, he also gave way to much time to guys like Millar, Pat Tabler, guys who were at the end, but Cito thought it was unfair for it to end, so gave them time in place of the Greens, Oleruds, and Sniders of the world.

[Maahfaace]

I think Cito had some real bad experiences as a young guy... horrible racist stuff. It affected him deeply and influenced a lot of his decisions.

 

Later in his career he was made a platoon player after one big season. A right handed platoon hitter... eventually got released, career fizzled out before he thought it should of.

 

So in the end he had a warm spot for players he thought weren't given respect. Guys like Carter, White, Jake Brumfield. Not only black guys, he also gave way to much time to guys like Millar, Pat Tabler, guys who were at the end, but Cito thought it was unfair for it to end, so gave them time in place of the Greens, Oleruds, and Sniders of the world.

 

this is quite a large withdraw from your rectum.....

[Olerud363]

this is quite a large withdraw from your rectum.....

 

What the hell is wrong with you?? Are you messed up or something?? It's well known Cito had bad racial experiences early in his career...

 

What the hell is wrong with this board.

 

http://articles.latimes.com/1992-10-24/sports/sp-649_1_gaston

 

YO BRO YOU MESSED UP CITO NEVER HAD NO PROB WITH RACE... NEVER HAPPENED PRO. YOU PULLED OUT O YOU RECTUM

[Maahfaace]

What the hell is wrong with you?? Are you messed up or something?? It's well known Cito had bad racial experiences early in his career...

 

What the hell is wrong with this board.

 

http://articles.latimes.com/1992-10-24/sports/sp-649_1_gaston

 

YO BRO YOU MESSED UP CITO NEVER HAD NO PROB WITH RACE... NEVER HAPPENED PRO. YOU PULLED OUT O YOU RECTUM

 

I would wager that just about every black man, or minority for that matter, faced racial adversity at some point in the 60's and 70's. It was unavoidable. The "pulled it out of your ass" reference was with regards to the conclusions you drew from said racial experiences.

[Krylian]

I think Cito had some real bad experiences as a young guy... horrible racist stuff. It affected him deeply and influenced a lot of his decisions.

 

Later in his career he was made a platoon player after one big season. A right handed platoon hitter... eventually got released, career fizzled out before he thought it should of.

 

So in the end he had a warm spot for players he thought weren't given respect. Guys like Carter, White, Jake Brumfield. Not only black guys, he also gave way to much time to guys like Millar, Pat Tabler, guys who were at the end, but Cito thought it was unfair for it to end, so gave them time in place of the Greens, Oleruds, and Sniders of the world.

 

Cito and Bob McCown got into it pretty good 20 or so years ago... Can't remember if it was during the glory years or after. McCown would regularly question Cito's moves and Cito decided to play the racist card. Wasn't a good scene. McCown has said on a few occasions that he thought Cito was a despicable person.

[Angrioter]

Pillar is an stalker

[nextyear]

Pillar is an stalker

 

 

Although that video has nothing to do with Kevin Pillar, it is the most interesting post in this thread by far (in my opinion).

 

Possibly the best cat video ever. But maybe someone can post a better one? The Wilner vs Pillar Twitter Battle thread is running out of steam.

[Brownie19]

I don't think Kevin Pillar should bat lead-off but he deserves credit for having a wRC+ of 120 in the playoffs against very tough pitchers, and has been improving at the plate throughout the year - http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=12434&position=OF

 

I think Revere should continue to bat lead-off. I think Pillar should bat number 6 or 7 in 2016, but he is on the rise so in the future he might be a number 5 type batter.

 

If you follow Pillar you'll notice he has massive hot and cold streaks. He was hot at the end of the season and into the playoffs...

[Brownie19]

Just like with hitters, it's unfair and short sighted to compare managers from different eras. They had virtually no access to advanced concepts of lineup construction and if you guys don't think that almost every manager in 93 would have done the same thing, you are kidding yourselves.

 

In which era was it a bad idea to get your best hitters the most at bats again???

[GeorgiaPeach]

I decided to fact-check this claim.

 

In 2015 Kevin Pillar had a total of 628 regular season plate appearances and 45 post-season appearances for a total of 673 plate appearances.

 

1) For the baseball term of first half (before the All Star break) he had wRC+ of 95 for the first "half" (actually 355 plate appearances which isn't really a half), and wRC+ of 95 for the second half including the playoffs (again not really a half of a season).

 

2) For the mathematical half of 673 plate appearances you don't get an even half so instead I did April 6 through July 8, 2015 which gives 339 plate appearances - http://www.fangraphs.com/statsd.aspx?playerid=12434&position=OF&type=&gds=2015-04-06&gde=2015-07-08&season= and this gives the first half number of wRC+ 94 (this gives the best number in your favour)

 

For the mathematical second half including the playoffs, I used the period of July 9 to October 4th (289 plate appearances) = wRC+ 92 - http://www.fangraphs.com/statsd.aspx?playerid=12434&position=OF&type=&gds=2015-07-09&gde=2015-10-04&season=, and 45 playoff plate appearance with wRC+ 120 - http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=12434&position=OF for a total of 334 plate appearances (the best in favour of your argument):

(289/334 x 92) + (45/334 x 120) = wRC+ 96 (rounded up from 95.77)

 

So at best you can say the two halves were equal if you use the baseball term of "first half". The only way that what you stated is true is if you ignore his playoff numbers, but when it comes to predicting his future potential there is no reason for doing that.

 

Can someone explain what it means when a player finishes the MLB regular season with a wRC+ of 93?

 

Just wondering.

[GeorgiaPeach]

.420 .340 .400 .310 .470 .400 .360 .300 .280

 

Those are the approximate on base percentages. I am guessing the best lineup statistically would of been

 

Henderson Olerud Molitor Alomar Fernandez White Carter Sprague Borders

 

Weird lineup -- but I bet it would of scored the most runs... keep in mind Olerud had a .470 on base percentage... had the second best overall season in Jays history that year (behind Donaldson this year)

 

For some reason Cito hated Olerud.

[GeorgiaPeach]

There is a reason Cito never got a job anywhere else.

 

Wasn't it race?

 

Oh wait, that was Cito's excuse.

[TDotttt2005]

This Parody sums him up best:

 

Wilner Is it Early? ‏@Wilnerisitearly Nov 14

 

Whether it's Kevin Pillar, or anyone else that Gibby decides to bat leadoff, I'll say it's the right move. #BlueJays #Jays

 

Seriously, Wilner had no thoughts on the issue until Gibbons batted Tulo leadoff, then all of a sudden Wilner was out there saying it was genius, stacking your best guys at the top. When asked if Revere should hit leadoff, he stuck to defending what Gibbons was doing, until Revere actually was moved into the leadoff spot, then he loved that move. So basically whatever Gibbons does, Wilner says is correct. It's been like that for years.

[KingKat]

This Parody sums him up best:

 

Wilner Is it Early? ‏@Wilnerisitearly Nov 14

 

Whether it's Kevin Pillar, or anyone else that Gibby decides to bat leadoff, I'll say it's the right move. #BlueJays #Jays

 

Seriously, Wilner had no thoughts on the issue until Gibbons batted Tulo leadoff, then all of a sudden Wilner was out there saying it was genius, stacking your best guys at the top. When asked if Revere should hit leadoff, he stuck to defending what Gibbons was doing, until Revere actually was moved into the leadoff spot, then he loved that move. So basically whatever Gibbons does, Wilner says is correct. It's been like that for years.

 

I don't love Wilner but I don't agree with that characterisation. Wilner is not the smartest, most current baseball thinker by any stretch but he does have certain core beliefs, essentially the ones laid out in Moneyball, OBP is better than AVG, OPS is a good measure of offensive value. While a lot of the baseball world uses wOBA or wRC+ for offensive value now and quotes WAR as a measure of total value, Wilner hasn't really embraced these concepts. OBP and OPS have been his go to stats for years and while it's true that he is a homer and will put a positive spin on certain things, it's not really needed here. Gibbons putting Tulo in the leadoff spot aligns perfectly with what Wilner has been trumpeting for at least a decade.

[Brownie19]

This Parody sums him up best:

 

Wilner Is it Early? ‏@Wilnerisitearly Nov 14

 

Whether it's Kevin Pillar, or anyone else that Gibby decides to bat leadoff, I'll say it's the right move. #BlueJays #Jays

 

Seriously, Wilner had no thoughts on the issue until Gibbons batted Tulo leadoff, then all of a sudden Wilner was out there saying it was genius, stacking your best guys at the top. When asked if Revere should hit leadoff, he stuck to defending what Gibbons was doing, until Revere actually was moved into the leadoff spot, then he loved that move. So basically whatever Gibbons does, Wilner says is correct. It's been like that for years.

 

Didn't the whole twitter exchange start because Wilner said he didn't like Revere hitting leadoff?