John Gibbons Thread (+ Venting)

[Olerud363]

^ People just dont get it around here. The entire philosophy is wrong. You cannot build a contender based on the Offense no matter how good the Offense the focus must be pitching. It just wont work.

 

This statement scares me a bit because knowing the Jays they will think they need more speed, more clutch, more rbis and less walks. More Ryan Goins maybe.

 

Why frame it like this?? Why say "you cannot build a contender based around offense?".

 

Why not say -- "You cannot build a contender around a pitching staff that is second last in ERA". This addresses the problem directly.

 

You make it seem as if the offense is the problem.

 

The problem is the pitching, and Maybe Reye's defense. Both should be solved without decreasing the offense.

[Olerud363]

^ People just dont get it around here. The entire philosophy is wrong. You cannot build a contender based on the Offense no matter how good the Offense the focus must be pitching. It just wont work.

 

this is the most dangerous statement on the board I have ever seen. Keep in mind guys like Beeston and AA could easily be influenced by Cito with s*** like this.

 

Perhaps reality - You cannot build a contender 1st in runs, 14th in era, even if the team scores so many runs that pythagoran is very good. This is because many of those runs will be add-ons against bad pitching. (not sure if this is true not, but perhaps reasonable to investigate)

 

Reality - get some average pitchers in... the best way to fix a team that is 14th in pitching

 

Complain about pitching, complain again, complain again and again and say:

 

"This is a historic offense, the best I have seen relative to league, please people get some pitchers, any pitchers, hack the Rays computers if you have to, and figure out how they get pitchers, I will help, I like computers and hacked my sisters friends phone for nude photos."

[intentional wok]

I like computers and hacked my sisters phone for nude photos."

 

This is disgusting. I can't believe you'd admit to this.

[Olerud363]

This is disgusting. I can't believe you'd admit to this.

 

I didn't admit to this. I like computers but I don't know how to hack.

 

There are a lot of people on this board. Some of them might know how to hack. Some of them might not be good enough to do celebrity nude hack, but may be able to do sister friend's hack.

 

Like they are 22 and just graduated from McMaster with C.S. degree.

 

And their Sister is 26, and her friend is 28.

 

It is just hypothetical, but I just want to be clear that I am not advocating some kid, like 14 hack his 11 year old sister's friends phone.

 

The main point is we need pitchers. Rays are good and finding pitchers seemingly from nowhere. Hacking seems to be in style these days. Why not get on board with it for now until they totally crack down.

 

Offense is fine. Don't mess with offense. Hack Rays computers to find out how to produce pitchers from nothing.

[Olerud363]

This is disgusting. I can't believe you'd admit to this.

 

What if Rays computers are full of valueable info like whether Danny Barnes or some such would translate to good reliever?? Like how Matt Boyd will actually translate as starter and/or reliever??

 

Like what if it contains info on all kinds of hidden gems in other oranizations that we should target.

 

1. Find good hacker. Maybe he hacked his Sister's friends (>25 years old) pictures, or maybe he didn't, but he is good at hacking.

2. Hack Rays computers to find good pitchers.

 

It is also a not so clever play on words

 

Beeston (interviewing C.S. kid) - So you hacked your sister's friends pictures.. very good. We need you to hack our friends computers for pitchers too.. it is spelt differently but not so different we think.. we need you to do this for the good of our business.

[glory]

The fans of probably 80% of the league want the manager fired. It accomplishes f*** all.

 

San Diego is still bad. Miami is still bad. Firing the manager did f*** all. Direct your childish rage at the correct target.

 

What if the Jays hired a manager that knows how to handle a bullpen? That plays his best players regardless of personal bias? That doesn't use 20-year old relievers every game with no regard for their long-term health?

 

No manager will turn this team into a 100 win monster, but a better manager using the roster more effectively may give this team a better shot. Gibbons wasn't that guy a decade ago and isn't that guy now.

[Boxcar]

All firing him does is placate the rabid fanbase for like 2 weeks before they realize he isn't the problem. This is not a unique phenemenon to this team. Try watching more than just the Jays and maybe you'll gain some perspective. Won't hold my breath though. Edited June 22, 2015 by Boxcar

[glory]

All firing him does is placate the rabid fanbase for like 2 weeks before they realize he isn't the problem. This is not a unique phenenon to this team. Try watching more than just the Jays and maybe you'll gain some perspective. Won't hold my breath though.

 

So you're saying that no other manager handles bullpens and lineups differently? Firing Gibbons and replacing him with a better guy would make no difference?

 

When Kevin Cash was hired by the Rays, I said they'd overachieve in 2015. They've done so with far less overall talent /health than Toronto. He knew Yan Gomes was a catcher when the entire Jays organization thought he was a utility player. A good manager helps a team. A bad manager hurts a team. An average manager probably makes no difference. I can tell you which category Gibby fits under, but you don't seem to see what others have seen for a decade with this guy.

[RealAccountant]

A bad manager hurts the team

[Boxcar]

So you're saying that no other manager handles bullpens and lineups differently? Firing Gibbons and replacing him with a better guy would make no difference?

 

Yes, that's kind of exactly what I'm saying and have been saying. Padres fans were exactly like you in wanting Bud Black's head. They got it, nothing changed and now they are looking for a new scapegoat.

 

When Kevin Cash was hired by the Rays, I said they'd overachieve in 2015. They've done so with far less overall talent /health than Toronto. He knew Yan Gomes was a catcher when the entire Jays organization thought he was a utility player. A good manager helps a team. A bad manager hurts a team. An average manager probably makes no difference. I can tell you which category Gibby fits under, but you don't seem to see what others have seen for a decade with this guy.

 

Tampa has a very deep team, which is why they can manage with injuries. They don't waste roster spots on total shitbags.

 

The Rays are a good team but it has next to nothing to do with the manager. You don't understand why they are good so you just reach for the manager, like the word "manager" is some kind of magical explanation for anything good or bad about a team that isn't immediately evident.

[Deadpool]

A bad manager hurts the team

 

Yep, but I don't really see how Gibbons is objectively a bad manager. He uses Navarro (a lot) more than I'd like, but other than that he manages the team he's been given about as well as can be expected. (cue bitching about the bullpen, when, again, those are the pitchers he's been given.)

[RealAccountant]

^ fair enough

 

I guess a lot of the hatred towards Gibby ought to be going towards AA but at the same time most would admit that he brings very little if any value to the Jays

[pickoff22]

Yes, that's kind of exactly what I'm saying and have been saying. Padres fans were exactly like you in wanting Bud Black's head. They got it, nothing changed and now they are looking for a new scapegoat.

 

 

 

Tampa has a very deep team, which is why they can manage with injuries. They don't waste roster spots on total shitbags.

 

The Rays are a good team but it has next to nothing to do with the manager. You don't understand why they are good so you just reach for the manager, like the word "manager" is some kind of magical explanation for anything good or bad about a team that isn't immediately evident.

 

It's nice to have some reason enter this thread. And let's not forget that Cash' BP management has been highly criticized in terms of overworking guys or keeping them in too long.

 

Managing isn't as easy as looking at fangraphs and saying "hey this guy's WAR is 0.1 better than this guy's, so he's getting the start today". People bitch when Navarro starts over Martin yet forget that the most games Martin has played in over the past 5 years is 133 (and surely those weren't all him starting behind the plate). Not to mention that many decisions are influenced because a certain player is banged up or not feeling 100%. It happens all the time in baseball - a player isn't declared unavailable but he's not quite right so he doesn't get the start or the call from the BP. I can find in game decisions by Gibby to criticize or that I don't agree with, but I could find a lot more to bitch about with many other managers around the league.

[Deadpool]

It's nice to have some reason enter this thread. And let's not forget that Cash' BP management has been highly criticized in terms of overworking guys or keeping them in too long.

 

Managing isn't as easy as looking at fangraphs and saying "hey this guy's WAR is 0.1 better than this guy's, so he's getting the start today". People bitch when Navarro starts over Martin yet forget that the most games Martin has played in over the past 5 years is 133 (and surely those weren't all him starting behind the plate). Not to mention that many decisions are influenced because a certain player is banged up or not feeling 100%. It happens all the time in baseball - a player isn't declared unavailable but he's not quite right so he doesn't get the start or the call from the BP. I can find in game decisions by Gibby to criticize or that I don't agree with, but I could find a lot more to bitch about with many other managers around the league.

 

To be fair, I mostly bitch when Navarro starts over Smoak as the DH/1B.

[pickoff22]

To be fair, I mostly bitch when Navarro starts over Smoak as the DH/1B.

 

That's fair. Navarro is such a messy situation because of the fact that a) we can't just let him sit on his ass and get no playing time and I'm sure there's the thought of wanting to keep some sort of value in him in case of a trade (which again appears to be a ball dropped by AA in the offseason). Very frustrating

[glory]

Yes, that's kind of exactly what I'm saying and have been saying. Padres fans were exactly like you in wanting Bud Black's head. They got it, nothing changed and now they are looking for a new scapegoat.

 

Lol, why are you so fixated on the word scapegoat? If Gibbons was good and the team was mediocre, this thread would t exist (or maybe it would but I wouldn't be participating in it). Why is wanting someone who doesn't think Dioner Navarro and Ryan Goins are good players, or doesn't use Miguel Castro every game for a month, and so on, suddenly just a cry for a scapegoat rather than just wanting a guy that knows what he is doing?

 

If you think every manager is the same, why not rehire Farrell? He couldn't be worse, right? I guess when I called him a bad manager I had it all wrong. He was simply doing what everyone else would have done in the same scenario. Sorry Farrell for doubting your brilliance.

 

 

Tampa has a very deep team, which is why they can manage with injuries. They don't waste roster spots on total shitbags.

 

The Rays are a good team but it has next to nothing to do with the manager. You don't understand why they are good so you just reach for the manager, like the word "manager" is some kind of magical explanation for anything good or bad about a team that isn't immediately evident.

 

When did I say the Rays were not a good team? I said I knew they'd be good/overachieve with Cash as manager when practically everyone else thought they were dead without Maddon. A good manager still needs talent, and he has it, but he will get the most out of that talent, unlike Gibbons with this team (Fangraphs loved us too prior to the season, by the way, probably more than they did the Rays).

 

Cash also overworks his pen because half his starters are injured. He still generally knows the difference between his best relievers and his worst ones, which already puts him a step above The Gibster.

[Deadpool]

If Gibbons was good and the team was mediocre, this thread would t exist (or maybe it would but I wouldn't be participating in it).

 

http://media.giphy.com/media/EouEzI5bBR8uk/giphy.gif

[Boxcar]

ITT: guy looking for a scapegoat wonders why people are fixated on the word scapegoat.

[pickoff22]

(Fangraphs loved us too prior to the season, by the way, probably more than they did the Rays).

 

 

I'm sure FG loved us because of our potent offense (which has outperformed expectations) and they expected much more out of our starters. The starters have been worse then the relievers (14th vs 28th), so unless we're gonna place blame on Gibby for the way our starters have performed and give him no credit for getting so much production from our offense, what fangraphs predicted to what reality has been really isn't on him.

[CHRIS]

To be fair, I mostly bitch when Navarro starts over Smoak as the DH/1B.

 

That's really my only main complaint with Gibbons as well.

 

I will be interested to see who gets the next save situation. Historically I think Gibbons has done a good job of rotating guys through that role, going back to the days when he guys like Speier and Downs on the team. I think yesterday was a chance to see if Cecil would right himself, and since he didn't, I wouldn't be surprised if he went with Delabar for a bit.

 

The roster construction has always been the bigger beef with me.

[BigCecil]

I'm sure FG loved us because of our potent offense (which has outperformed expectations) and they expected much more out of our starters. The starters have been worse then the relievers (14th vs 28th), so unless we're gonna place blame on Gibby for the way our starters have performed and give him no credit for getting so much production from our offense, what fangraphs predicted to what reality has been really isn't on him.

 

Well said. I can't blame Gibby...as far as our pitching staff is concerned you can only polish a turd so much. They just aren't very good overall and a lot of people knew that when the season started. If hasn't changed much.

[Daniel Labude]

One of the key series we will play this summer and our 2 best hitters/defensive players sitting for Valencia and Navarro....yeah managers don't impact the game lol

[glory]

One of the key series we will play this summer and our 2 best hitters/defensive players sitting for Valencia and Navarro....yeah managers don't impact the game lol

 

Every other manager in baseball would have done the same thing.

 

/Logic

[CrackerJack]

One of the key series we will play this summer and our 2 best hitters/defensive players sitting for Valencia and Navarro....yeah managers don't impact the game lol

 

"key series?" . . . oh no, Donaldson & Martin are resting with the Jays having just 91 games remaining ... including 12 more against the unstoppable Rays!!!!

[Mikeleelop]

One of the key series we will play this summer and our 2 best hitters/defensive players sitting for Valencia and Navarro....yeah managers don't impact the game lol

 

Is the season a marathon or a sprint?

 

Rest now = fresher players in August/September

[Daniel Labude]

Is the season a marathon or a sprint?

 

Rest now = fresher players in August/September

 

Get swept now...1 game in September won't matter

[burlingtonbandit]

"key series?" . . . oh no, Donaldson & Martin are resting with the Jays having just 91 games remaining ... including 12 more against the unstoppable Rays!!!!

 

I don't get the Martin sitting considering it would seem to be better to sit him Wednesday and give him 2 days off in a row. Navarro will catch 2/3 games this series.

[RealAccountant]

Honestly Gibby's negative energy is f***ing pathetic. A leader never shows when they are worried. Cito used to hang back in the shade indifferent of what was going on. You'd never know how he felt

 

Gibby is humping and puffing around in the clubhouse while Osuna is pitching, that sort of negative energy cannot be good for the team as a whole. perhaps we are missing the full picture that the bullpen itself has quit on Gibby.

[spats]

Honestly Gibby's negative energy is f***ing pathetic. A leader never shows when they are worried. Cito used to hang back in the shade indifferent of what was going on. You'd never know how he felt

 

Gibby is humping and puffing around in the clubhouse while Osuna is pitching, that sort of negative energy cannot be good for the team as a whole. perhaps we are missing the full picture that the bullpen itself has quit on Gibby.

 

Ya that negative energy really f***ed up Osuna. Imagine that..Gibby rests Donaldson and Martin and they get the win with Valencia and Navarro contributing..Genius.

[pickoff22]

Another incredible game by Gibby. Pushes all the right buttons and gets a great win while resting key players who can come out in full force tomorrow. Fantastic job.