Jays pitching youngsters on par with the Braves youngsters of the '90's???

[Jayzfan79]

Until two of them bust and another has his career derailed by injuries.

 

you make it sound like the Jays have this type of misfortune...like one could blow out a knee during bunt drills and another blowing it out on a sprinkler hea....oh wait.....

[BTS]

you make it sound like the Jays have this type of misfortune...like one could blow out a knee during bunt drills and another blowing it out on a sprinkler hea....oh wait.....

 

Meh, the fortunate teams are the ones who see most of their top prospects pan out. If two years from now we have Stroman as a 1/2 and Norris and Hutch as solid 2/3 types while Sanchez has busted and Hoffman is struggling I'll consider it a great success.

[Angrioter]

once Stroman is back and Hoffman is called up, can you imagine a fearsome 5some of Stroman, Hutch, Norris, Sanchez, Hoffman?

 

sick.

 

Time ago

-"Pirates rotation will be great with Taillon, Cole, Allie and Heredia"

-"O's will f*** everybody with Bundy, Tillman and Gausman"

[BTS]

Time ago

-"Pirates rotation will be great with Taillon, Cole, Allie and Heredia"

-"O's will f*** everybody with Bundy, Tillman and Gausman"

 

The Orioles rotation was going to be monstrous: Tillman, Matusz, Britton, and Arrieta were going to be stars.

[Ehjays]

Until two of them bust and another has his career derailed by injuries.

 

I think they are this teams future......and I think the only way those five aren't our starting five is because some other top prospect forced managements hand.

[KingKat]

Just out of curiosity, how many of those guys ever made it into the top 50 on any prospect list?

 

I think only Morrow of those four but I'm not sure. He would have been with Seattle when he was a prospect so I wouldn't have necessarily paid much attention. Considering his draft position and his raw skill set it certainly seems quite likely. The other three weren't that highly ranked. I don't think any of them ever made a top 100 much less a top 50. Other than Snider, the Jays really didn't make much noise on prospect lists back then. Of course that doesn't necessarily mean that much. A lot of prospects never put together the kind of good season that Marcum, Cecil and Romero had when they were at their best.

[GD]

The Orioles rotation was going to be monstrous: Tillman, Matusz, Britton, and Arrieta were going to be stars.

 

Didn't even turn out that badly. Tillman is an average-ish guy, Matusz busted, Britton is a stud closer, Arrieta is a stud (?). 3/4 ain't bad.

[BigBounceyBlueBalls]

I think only Morrow of those four but I'm not sure. He would have been with Seattle when he was a prospect so I wouldn't have necessarily paid much attention. Considering his draft position and his raw skill set it certainly seems quite likely. The other three weren't that highly ranked. I don't think any of them ever made a top 100 much less a top 50. Other than Snider, the Jays really didn't make much noise on prospect lists back then. Of course that doesn't necessarily mean that much. A lot of prospects never put together the kind of good season that Marcum, Cecil and Romero had when they were at their best.

 

And how many of those Braves pitchers were on those top 50 lists I think was the question?

[BTS]

Didn't even turn out that badly. Tillman is an average-ish guy, Matusz busted, Britton is a stud closer, Arrieta is a stud (?). 3/4 ain't bad.

 

It actually worked out as well as we can expect our guys to work out.

 

Stud - Arrieta, Stroman

Solid guy - Tillman, Hutchison

relief ace - Britton, Norris

relief guy - Matusz, Sanchez

 

new guys - Bundy/Gausman, Hoffman/Osuna

 

Would be a pretty ok turnout.

[GD]

It actually worked out as well as we can expect our guys to work out.

 

Stud - Arrieta, Stroman

Solid guy - Tillman, Hutchison

relief ace - Britton, Norris

relief guy - Matusz, Sanchez

 

new guys - Bundy/Gausman, Hoffman/Osuna

 

Would be a pretty ok turnout.

 

I'd think more like:

 

Stud: Arrieta - Stroman

Solid guy: Tillman - Norris (ugh that's painful to write)

Relief ace: Britton - Hoffman/Osuna/Castro

Relief guy: Matusz - Sanchez(/Reid Foley?)

 

I'd exclude Hutch from this, he's got a nice, semi-large dataset from which to judge that can assume he's already a solid guy. Of course, some of these guys will succumb to injuries, which I won't try and project, but if I had to, Hutch would certainly be most likely after TJS and then the velocity things last year.

[glory]

Until two of them bust and another has his career derailed by injuries.

 

That's precisely why I don't want AA back next year. The team is going to lose Buehrle (and miss him dearly), and he'll be replaced by a prospect if AA is still around. The team needs some vet starters and keep the prospects in the minors for depth purposes. They need to find a GM who recognizes that, and not a GM who fantasizes about every single one of his pitching prospects panning out like a homer fan would.

[Jayzfan79]

Hutch - 24

Stroman - 23

Norris - 21

Sanchez - 22

 

Hoffman - 22

Osuna - 20

Castro - 20

 

these ages and the upsides....

[North of 60]

Just like Purcey, Drabek, McGowan, League?

[ElNik2013]

That's precisely why I don't want AA back next year. The team is going to lose Buehrle (and miss him dearly), and he'll be replaced by a prospect if AA is still around. The team needs some vet starters and keep the prospects in the minors for depth purposes. They need to find a GM who recognizes that, and not a GM who fantasizes about every single one of his pitching prospects panning out like a homer fan would.

 

 

AA gave up Alvarez as part of the package to get Buehrle. He also gave up Syndergaard in the Dickey deal. Just this off season, he gave up Nolin and Graveman in the Donaldson deal.

 

Just sayin'.

[glory]

AA gave up Alvarez as part of the package to get Buehrle. He also gave up Syndergaard in the Dickey deal. Just this off season, he gave up Nolin and Graveman in the Donaldson deal.

 

Just sayin'.

 

I think it's fair to say we will never see that type of off-season again with AA since Rogers probably wouldn't trust him to do that again. Prior to that off-season he was promoting guys straight from Double-A to fill rotation spots (Drabek, Alvarez, Hutchison, etc), and now it's Sanchez and Norris with practically no high minors/MLB experience filling rotation spots. It's one thing if he was counting on them, but added a bunch of depth guys behind them in case of need. Instead, he just sort of limped into Spring Training with four set starters, and didn't bother to have a contingency plan if something happened. I expect no different next season, although if he's still around in 2016 then that means the Jays probably made the playoffs, so I guess I should be rooting for him to keep his job.

[ElNik2013]

I think it's fair to say we will never see that type of off-season again with AA since Rogers probably wouldn't trust him to do that again. Prior to that off-season he was promoting guys straight from Double-A to fill rotation spots (Drabek, Alvarez, Hutchison, etc), and now it's Sanchez and Norris with practically no high minors/MLB experience filling rotation spots. It's one thing if he was counting on them, but added a bunch of depth guys behind them in case of need. Instead, he just sort of limped into Spring Training with four set starters, and didn't bother to have a contingency plan if something happened. I expect no different next season, although if he's still around in 2016 then that means the Jays probably made the playoffs, so I guess I should be rooting for him to keep his job.

 

 

 

I think the team didn't want their top pitching prospects pitching at Las Vegas when those 3 were promoted from AA, but I wasn't following the team as closely back then so I could be mistaken.

 

Would you feel better if he had kept Happ, Nolin and Graveman? Then again, the team wouldn't have Michael Saunders in LF and Josh Donaldson at 3B.

 

Also, who are these "bunch of depth guys" you would've added and, if you're referring to guys looking to rebuild their value after a down or injury-filled year, would the RC really be your first choice to rebuild your value?

[ElNik2013]

I think it's fair to say we will never see that type of off-season again with AA since Rogers probably wouldn't trust him to do that again. Prior to that off-season he was promoting guys straight from Double-A to fill rotation spots (Drabek, Alvarez, Hutchison, etc), and now it's Sanchez and Norris with practically no high minors/MLB experience filling rotation spots. It's one thing if he was counting on them, but added a bunch of depth guys behind them in case of need. Instead, he just sort of limped into Spring Training with four set starters, and didn't bother to have a contingency plan if something happened. I expect no different next season, although if he's still around in 2016 then that means the Jays probably made the playoffs, so I guess I should be rooting for him to keep his job.

 

 

 

Also, I gave you examples of AA trading away prospects for veterans to refute your statement that AA "fantasizes about every single one of his pitching prospects panning out like a homer fan would".

[KingKat]

I think the team didn't want their top pitching prospects pitching at Las Vegas when those 3 were promoted from AA

 

Accurate.

[ElNik2013]

There's always these imaginary scenarios whereby the team could just sign all the top depth options at SP as if they're just lining up to pitch at the RC.

 

Player agents aren't dumb, they analyze these types of things and advice their clients on where they should be looking (see JJ and Morrow signing with the Pads).

[ElNik2013]

Jays were probably Santana's only suitor and they still ended up giving him incentive bonuses.

[glory]

I think the team didn't want their top pitching prospects pitching at Las Vegas when those 3 were promoted from AA, but I wasn't following the team as closely back then so I could be mistaken.

 

Would you feel better if he had kept Happ, Nolin and Graveman? Then again, the team wouldn't have Michael Saunders in LF and Josh Donaldson at 3B.

 

Also, who are these "bunch of depth guys" you would've added and, if you're referring to guys looking to rebuild their value after a down or injury-filled year, would the RC really be your first choice to rebuild your value?

 

The Donaldson trade was great. THere is a difference between fringe prospects (Nolin/Graveman) and top prospects (Norris, Sanchez, etc). Trading the fringe guys, especially if you're getting an MVP candidate in return, is a no brainer.

 

The problem is, if you're going to trade depth, find a way to replenish it. When Mike Bolsinger is DFA'd, trade for him (he was traded for cash, I believe). Sign guys to minor league deals as depth pieces (Jeff Francis types are fine if that's all you can get). Find older blocked bottom of the rotation guys with good minor league numbers from other organizations, find a deal, and put them in AAA. Maybe one of them can stick. Not saying any of that is easy, but what is easy in baseball? You still have to make moves. What did the Jays do, though? A bunch of minor league relievers (which was fine) off waivers or minor league deals, but no SP depth, unless you want to count on Johan being able to throw a pitch without hurting himself.

 

He did the same s*** in 2012. Remember that vaunted rotation of Romero, Morrow, Drabek (coming off a terrible season), Alvarez (rushed big time), Cecil (the one who had no velocity), Mcgowan (hadn't started in four years at that point), Hutchison (with barely any Double-A innings), and Carreno? No depth, no vets to bridge the gap, just a bunch of young prospects thrown into the rotation hoping they stick.

 

Like I said, 2013 was the outlier. Every other season he has acted a completely different way.

[ElNik2013]

The Donaldson trade was great. THere is a difference between fringe prospects (Nolin/Graveman) and top prospects (Norris, Sanchez, etc). Trading the fringe guys, especially if you're getting an MVP candidate in return, is a no brainer.

 

The problem is, if you're going to trade depth, find a way to replenish it. When Mike Bolsinger is DFA'd, trade for him (he was traded for cash, I believe). Sign guys to minor league deals as depth pieces (Jeff Francis types are fine if that's all you can get). Find older blocked bottom of the rotation guys with good minor league numbers from other organizations and put them in AAA. Maybe one of them can stick. What did the Jays do, though? A bunch of minor league relievers (which was fine) off waivers or minor league deals, but no SP depth, unless you want to count on Johan being able to throw a pitch without hurting himself.

 

He did the same s*** in 2012. Remember that vaunted rotation of Romero, Morrow, Drabek (coming off a terrible season), Alvarez (rushed big time), Cecil (the one who had no velocity), Mcgowan (hadn't started in four years at that point), Hutchison (with barely any Double-A innings), and Carreno? No depth, no vets to bridge the gap, just a bunch of young prospects thrown into the rotation hoping they stick.

 

Like I said, 2013 was the outlier. Every other season he has acted a completely different way.

 

 

So you're fine with "Jeff Francis types if that's all you can get"? I have news for you, Jeff Francis was signed. Liam Hendriks has had good minor league numbers in other organizations and so has Todd Redmond. Estrada has had success in MLB as a SP. What's wrong with signing Santana? Nothing to lose.

 

 

As far as 2012 goes, different circumstances, F/O was retooling an almost-barren organization and I doubt they were trying to win.

[saskjayfan]

AA gave up Alvarez as part of the package to get Buehrle. He also gave up Syndergaard in the Dickey deal. Just this off season, he gave up Nolin and Graveman in the Donaldson deal.

 

Just sayin'.

 

so you didn't like the Donaldson trade? I'd do that Donaldson trade every day of the week.

[ElNik2013]

so you didn't like the Donaldson trade? I'd do that Donaldson trade every day of the week.

 

 

Ok, re-read the thread and get back to me.

[ElNik2013]

Juan Oramas was also brought in. He made 21 starts for the Padres' AAA affiliate in 2014.

[ElNik2013]

I guess some here miss Happ already, but then they'd be complaining about LF.