Should we be rebuilding?

[glory]

Between acquiring Travis and Martin, this has the makings of AA's best off-season if he is finally understanding the concept of value and using free agency as a way to acquire talent.

 

Still a long way to go and he still has plenty of time to mess up, but keeping prospects + making the playoffs should be the goal. So far, so good.

[LongTimeReader]

The OP isn't advocating rebuilding BTW. Just trying to make a point to some (AdamGreenwood).

 

You sir are a gentleman and a scholar.

 

If anything I was advocating against it but trying to remain neutral for sake of thread discussion.

[Governator]

I would have been ok with selling off if that was the collective decision. However, AA has shown up this off season and looks to be going for it again and at this stage one can only hope he has the balls to upgrade mid season if they are in playoff contention again.

[BigBounceyBlueBalls]

So then Shields,Headley and miller and trade for Saunders and we are good to go!

 

Realistically money wise what we looking there? What would that take us to payroll wise? What would it take to get Saunders?

 

Would this get us enough wins to reach the playoffs? JaFS do the Voodoo you do so well ! Lol

[BigBounceyBlueBalls]

Ya I'd say that's a playoff team. Except only 1 more signing is likely, 2 would be stretching, 3 is not happening.

 

So your saying there's a chance! lol

[wardhenke1]

If we were to honestly identify positions of need right now, we would conclude that we still need a good infielder, a left and a centre fielder, at least one ace and 2-3 decent bullpen pieces including a closer. In what universe are we close to being a contender?

[KingKat]

If we were to honestly identify positions of need right now, we would conclude that we still need a good infielder, a left and a centre fielder, at least one ace and 2-3 decent bullpen pieces including a closer. In what universe are we close to being a contender?

 

In an universe where the Jays get huge contributions from young players like Pompey, Stroman, Hutch, Norris, etc.

[wardhenke1]

In an universe where the Jays get huge contributions from young players like Pompey, Stroman, Hutch, Norris, etc.

 

I salute your optimism, I truly do, but without a 2B, a LF, a CF, an ace, a closer and at least 1-2 more bullpen pieces? And that's assuming Lawrie, Reyes, EE etc. can hold up for a full or close to a full season.

[KingKat]

I salute your optimism, I truly do, but without a 2B, a LF, a CF, an ace, a closer and at least 1-2 more bullpen pieces? And that's assuming Lawrie, Reyes, EE etc. can hold up for a full or close to a full season.

 

How is Pompey not a CF? You're confusing me.

[LongTimeReader]

I salute your optimism, I truly do, but without a 2B, a LF, a CF, an ace, a closer and at least 1-2 more bullpen pieces? And that's assuming Lawrie, Reyes, EE etc. can hold up for a full or close to a full season.

 

There is a stigma that teams need an ace, but it's not entirely well formed. The only thing that matters is the collective performance of your starters, unless we're specifically talking about the play-offs where having an ace can clearly be beneficial. In more cases than not having a group of "good" starters instead a group plus an ace (assuming in either case the collective value is the same) will be more economically viable.

[wardhenke1]

So just to be clear, you're banking our future as contenders on Pompey being a great centre fielder, Stroman being an ace and Travis a more than capable second baseman? Swish!

 

Well, f*** me then. Jays; spend $200m+ now!!

 

Hell, maybe this year Morrow will be the ace we've all been missing......oh, wait........

 

 

Quick note.

 

>Devon Travis - No games at major league level

 

>Marcus Stroman - started 20 games at major league level, pitched in 26

 

>Dalton Pompey - 11 games at major league level

[Spanky__99]

How is Pompey not a CF? You're confusing me.

 

Not to mention it's the 25th of November, and the Winter Meetings hasn't happened yet?!

[L54]

So just to be clear, you're banking our future as contenders on Pompey being a great centre fielder, Stroman being an ace and Travis a more than capable second baseman? Swish!

 

Well, f*** me then. Jays; spend $200m+ now!!

 

Hell, maybe this year Morrow will be the ace we've all been missing......oh, wait........

 

 

Quick note.

 

>Devon Travis - No games at major league level

 

>Marcus Stroman - started 20 games at major league level, pitched in 26

 

>Dalton Pompey - 11 games at major league level

 

Nobody has claimed Pompey will be a great CF in his first full year. The term "ace" is thrown around too frequently to quantify what an ace really is. I can think of 29 other teams that would love to have Stroman in their rotation. Travis is probably a ~2 win upgrade over the current 2B regime.

 

I anticipate one more signing (Headley or McCarthy please) and at least one trade (Saunders out of SEA but I don't see it happening, plus Navarro should be gone). As long as AA isn't content with the current team, there is reason to believe this team can compete for the WC.

[L54]

See http://www.fangraphs.com/depthcharts.aspx?position=ALL&teamid=14

 

Why wouldn't Travis on the depth chart?

[Smokey]

There is a stigma that teams need an ace, but it's not entirely well formed. The only thing that matters is the collective performance of your starters, unless we're specifically talking about the play-offs where having an ace can clearly be beneficial. In more cases than not having a group of "good" starters instead a group plus an ace (assuming in either case the collective value is the same) will be more economically viable.

 

So are the playoffs not suppose to matter?

 

I know at this point, after years of failure, most fans would probably be content with simply making the playoffs. But having a rotation that puts us at a matchup disadvantage against most teams makes us more of a pretender than anything else.

 

There's obviously plenty of time for improvements but let's not get ridiculous and discount the value of proven front-line starters.

[BigBounceyBlueBalls]

So just to be clear, you're banking our future as contenders on Pompey being a great centre fielder, Stroman being an ace and Travis a more than capable second baseman? Swish!

 

Well, f*** me then. Jays; spend $200m+ now!!

 

Hell, maybe this year Morrow will be the ace we've all been missing......oh, wait........

 

 

Quick note.

 

>Devon Travis - No games at major league level

 

>Marcus Stroman - started 20 games at major league level, pitched in 26

 

>Dalton Pompey - 11 games at major league level

 

Your really a positive glass empty kinda guy! Wow lol

[wanderer]

So are the playoffs not suppose to matter?

 

I know at this point, after years of failure, most fans would probably be content with simply making the playoffs. But having a rotation that puts us at a matchup disadvantage against most teams makes us more of a pretender than anything else.

 

There's obviously plenty of time for improvements but let's not get ridiculous and discount the value of proven front-line starters.

 

And let's not assume a front-line starter = playoffs.

 

I will take a consistent and dependable 5 over a below average rotation with an ace any day. We've had our share of aces over the years, and it hasn't exactly helped us.

[BigBounceyBlueBalls]

Quick note.

 

> Marcus Stroman projected to be 12th best pitcher in baseball (prorated to 200 IP)

 

> Devon Travis projected to be worth 2.5 WAR over a full season

 

 

Work your Voodoo that you do with numbers buddy! Bitch slap his ass back to the cave! Lol

[wardhenke1]

Quick note.

 

> Marcus Stroman projected to be 12th best pitcher in baseball (prorated to 200 IP)

 

> Devon Travis projected to be worth 2.5 WAR over a full season

 

Come back to me when Kratz starts collecting on his $75m. To extrapolate WAR over a full season for 3 prospects with a combined major league experience of 37 games is beyond ridiculous.

 

Plus Spanky agrees with you. That means I'm winning this, hands down.

[L54]

Come back to me when Kratz starts collecting on his $75m. To extrapolate WAR over a full season for 3 prospects with a combined major league experience of 37 games is beyond ridiculous.

 

Plus Spanky agrees with you. That means I'm winning this, hands down.

 

Or one has already had major league success in his first full year, one is a top 100 prospect and the other fills a huge hole. These aren't AAAA filler scrubs.

[GD]

Come back to me when Kratz starts collecting on his $75m. To extrapolate WAR over a full season for 3 prospects with a combined major league experience of 37 games is beyond ridiculous.

 

Plus Spanky agrees with you. That means I'm winning this, hands down.

 

You know minor league statistics is a thing, right?

[wardhenke1]

You know minor league statistics is a thing, right?

 

You know they're different from major league statistics right? Otherwise everyone who succeeds in the minors would be a surefire major leaguer, y'know, like Brett Wallace.

 

The whole point of this thread was whether or not we should be in rebuilding mode. I would contend that this core is nowhere near good enough and two seasons of 74-88 and 83-79 do not speak to this season being significantly better without major upgrades. Further we have huge holes on the team that cannot be filled with AAA players and prospects if you want to be a serious world series contender. Why is this so hard to comprehend?

 

Perhaps if I were to put it this way: I don't believe there is enough money available that would realistically make this team a contender. I'm not even sure how much money we would need to put us there. It is a fundamentally flawed squad and we are already working under obvious financial constraints. Relying on young prospects with little or no major league experience, however highly rated, is grasping at straws.

Edited November 26, 2014 by wardhenke1

[Angrioter]

So just to be clear, you're banking our future as contenders on Pompey being a great centre fielder, Stroman being an ace and Travis a more than capable second baseman? Swish!

 

Well, f*** me then. Jays; spend $200m+ now!!

 

Hell, maybe this year Morrow will be the ace we've all been missing......oh, wait........

 

 

Quick note.

 

>Devon Travis - No games at major league level

 

>Marcus Stroman - started 20 games at major league level, pitched in 26

 

>Dalton Pompey - 11 games at major league level

 

Do you know the rookie of the year award?

[L54]

You know they're different from major league statistics right? Otherwise everyone who succeeds in the minors would be a surefire major leaguer, y'know, like Brett Wallace.

 

The whole point of this thread was whether or not we should be in rebuilding mode. I would contend that this core is nowhere near good enough and two seasons of 74-88 and 83-79 do not speak to this season being significantly better without major upgrades. Further we have huge holes on the team that cannot be filled with AAA players and prospects if you want to be a world series contender. Why is this so hard to comprehend?

 

Perhaps if I were to put it this way: I don't believe there is enough money available that would realistically make this team a contender. I'm not even sure how much money we would need to put us there. It is a fundamentally flawed squad and we are already working under obvious financial constraints. Relying on young prospects with little or no major league experience, however highly rated, is grasping at straws.

 

People need to stop s***ing their pants because the Red Sox signed Pablo and Hanley.

[LongTimeReader]

So are the playoffs not suppose to matter?

 

I know at this point, after years of failure, most fans would probably be content with simply making the playoffs. But having a rotation that puts us at a matchup disadvantage against most teams makes us more of a pretender than anything else.

 

There's obviously plenty of time for improvements but let's not get ridiculous and discount the value of proven front-line starters.

 

Depends on your perspective, but IMO priority should be planning to make the play-offs not planning for the play-offs. And therefore it becomes a want vs. need argument, you need a good starting staff, you don't need an ace, you certainly want him.

[Smokey]

Depends on your perspective, but IMO priority should be planning to make the play-offs not planning for the play-offs. And therefore it becomes a want vs. need argument, you need a good starting staff, you don't need an ace, you certainly want him.

 

Those two things aren't mutually exclusive though... For now, filling the holes at 2B and OF should probably be a priority.. but IMO an upgrade to the rotation is necessary before this team can be considered a legit contender.

[LongTimeReader]

Those two things aren't mutually exclusive though... For now, filling the holes at 2B and OF should probably be a priority.. but IMO an upgrade to the rotation is necessary before this team can be considered a legit contender.

 

That's fine. And the rest: you sound like you're trying to make a counter-point which makes no sense because I never implied otherwise.

[Governator]

Red Sox finished 12 games behind the Jays, I'd stop worrying about what they are doing. They have frogs to leap while we are just trying to find ways to add 1 extra win each month.

[canadiansportsjunkie]

Rebuild? No way.

 

We have the potential to be a playoff team. We have a perfect mix right now of veteran players and young players with a decent prospect pool. We have a few moves left this off season but I truly like the makeup so far

[LongTimeReader]

Red Sox finished 12 games behind the Jays, I'd stop worrying about what they are doing. They have frogs to leap while we are just trying to find ways to add 1 extra win each month.

 

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