We should be in rebuilding mode

[AdamGreenwood]

I don't really know why we signed Martin. We're not close enough to chase a championship. Our starting pitching is not very good, and we have a few other weak spots - most noticeably DH.

With time running out on EE and Bautista, this would have been an ideal time to have unloaded those guys and picked up some young talent.

 

The Cubs, Dodgers and Red Sox are running over with talent, with guys way too talented for AAA having nowhere to go. These teams are desperate for someone to reach out with a solution.

 

The Dodgers have a massive logjam at both infield and outfield.

The Cubs have more young stars than they can count, as every Cuban seems to be working for them.

The Red Sox can't find anywhere for Mookie Betts to play. They might shuffle him to left field, even though he's a plus defender at both CF and 2B. A huge waste.

 

We should be capitalizing on this and grabbing talent, and end our cycle of finishing middle of the pack for the 22nd year in a row.

[saskjayfan]

I don't really know why we signed Martin. We're not close enough to chase a championship. Our starting pitching is not very good, and we have a few other weak spots - most noticeably DH.

With time running out on EE and Bautista, this would have been an ideal time to have unloaded those guys and picked up some young talent.

 

The Cubs, Dodgers and Red Sox are running over with talent, with guys way too talented for AAA having nowhere to go. These teams are desperate for someone to reach out with a solution.

 

The Dodgers have a massive logjam at both infield and outfield.

The Cubs have more young stars than they can count, as every Cuban seems to be working for them.

The Red Sox can't find anywhere for Mookie Betts to play. They might shuffle him to left field, even though he's a plus defender at both CF and 2B. A huge waste.

 

We should be capitalizing on this and grabbing talent, and end our cycle of finishing middle of the pack for the 22nd year in a row.

 

Martin is signed for 5 years. Are you saying there's no chance of competing for 5 years? Sanchez, Norris, Stroman, Hutch, Hoffman, Osuna.....do you not want an experienced catcher to work with young talent? I guess you've determined these guys are not good today, and will never be good over the next 5 years with your "our starting pitching is not very good" comment.

 

We didn't give up any assets to acquire Martin. Why are you so concerned about Rogers bottom line...lol.

[Dr. Dinger]

We have two of the most elite hitters in baseball in their prime, better rebuild!

[AdamGreenwood]

I think we should be in perpetual contention mode. That's where Martin comes in. We have some very valuable (win wise) older guys (Martin, Reyes, EE, Bautista) and some very valuable and controllable younger guys (Stroman, Hutch, Pompey, Lawrie, Norris, Sanchez). I see the chance for perpetual contenders.

 

We've been in perpetual contending mode for 21 years. How do you like it so far?

[AdamGreenwood]

We have two of the most elite hitters in baseball in their prime, better rebuild!

 

Well, that's 8% of the roster taken care of.

[FireAlexAnthopoulos]

f***, I'm just glad that we're finally picking a direction for once even if it's not rebuilding. 21 years of limbo is just a waste of time.

[Angrioter]

I don't really know why we signed Martin. We're not close enough to chase a championship. Our starting pitching is not very good, and we have a few other weak spots - most noticeably DH.

 

 

We must talk to the commissioner to change the Jays to the National League Central and send the Cubs to the AL East. Baez would be a perfect DH

[RealAccountant]

. we have a few other weak spots - most noticeably DH.

 

Yes lets rebuild around some future DH Candidates

 

DHs are the easiest spot to fill in MLB and ideal for aging veterans who can still hit.

 

I suggest we trade Bautista for a future DH Prospect.

[AdamGreenwood]

Martin is signed for 5 years. Are you saying there's no chance of competing for 5 years? Sanchez, Norris, Stroman, Hutch, Hoffman, Osuna.....do you not want an experienced catcher to work with young talent? I guess you've determined these guys are not good today, and will never be good over the next 5 years with your "our starting pitching is not very good" comment.

 

We didn't give up any assets to acquire Martin. Why are you so concerned about Rogers bottom line...lol.

 

I'm pretty sure we could have picked up a pitching coach a lot cheaper than $82 million. Sure, Martin will help them more than JPA, but mentoring is not why we paid the big money.

I think our starting pitching will be good in a couple of years, but we're not there yet. By the time these guys mature, we won't be able to hang on to EE or Bautista.

 

You know that money that you don't care about? There's a limit. If we spend $82 million on a 32 year old catcher, we don't renew Bautista/EE, we don't chase after guys like Tanaka or Abreu.

There's a fixed amount of money that Rogers is willing to spend, and if they spend it poorly, then there will be less money available for other purchases.

 

Plus, I have stock in Rogers.

[LongTimeReader]

AG: I think you're right but this is all happening for the wrong reasons. Our GM is on the hotseat and we have a slim chance to compete so he's taking it. There's no way AA is going to go into a rebuild mode, that's essentially admitting failure on his part.

[RIPEXPOS]

The ldeal is putting together a roster that can make a run these next 2 years while also insulating our young core talent. That's why the Martin signing made so much sense. I'm very down for moves that do that.

[AdamGreenwood]

AG: I think you're right but this is all happening for the wrong reasons. Our GM is on the hotseat and we have a slim chance to compete so he's taking it. There's no way AA is going to go into a rebuild mode, that's essentially admitting failure on his part.

 

Exactly. That's the problem.

JP did the same thing in the last few years. Made a lot of really bad decisions to try and salvage his job.

[TwistedLogic]

Exactly. That's the problem.

JP did the same thing in the last few years. Made a lot of really bad decisions to try and salvage his job.

 

JP made genuinely atrocious decisions. AA has a resume of a lot of very good small decisions, with a couple major poor decisions. If he had even had a little bit of luck on his bigger moves, he'd be talked about as one of the better GMs in the game. Despite all of his shortcomings and all of the questionable decisions, I have never at any point through his tenure seen AA as a bottom-15 GM in the MLB.

[RealAccountant]

Exactly. That's the problem.

JP did the same thing in the last few years. Made a lot of really bad decisions to try and salvage his job.

 

Not sure if you were actually paying attention to the JP Era, but no he didn't. Also his decisions were not bad at all, they just didn't pan out. For example the Burnett signing was a great signing, Burnett was worth 10.7 WAR in the 3 years he was here. An absolutely great signing.

 

JP was a victim of a time when Yankees and Redsox were on a high and could spent whatever they wanted. In todays time, JP's teams would easily go the playoffs

[RealAccountant]

JP made genuinely atrocious decisions. .

 

Which in particular?

[xposbrad]

Yes lets rebuild around some future DH Candidates

 

DHs are the easiest spot to fill in MLB and ideal for aging veterans who can still hit.

 

I suggest we trade Bautista for a future DH Prospect.

 

You are killing the happy vibe the boards has over signing a soon to be 32 year old catcher who should be entering the declining part of his career in 1-2 years on a 5 year deal.

[LongTimeReader]

Not sure if you were actually paying attention to the JP Era, but no he didn't. Also his decisions were not bad at all, they just didn't pan out. For example the Burnett signing was a great signing, Burnett was worth 10.7 WAR in the 3 years he was here. An absolutely great signing.

 

JP was a victim of a time when Yankees and Redsox were on a high and could spent whatever they wanted. In todays time, JP's teams would easily go the playoffs

 

I think in the world of baseball a "decision that doesn't pan out" is essentially a bad decision.

[RealAccountant]

You are killing the happy vibe the boards has over signing a soon to be 32 year old catcher who should be entering the declining part of his career in 1-2 years on a 5 year deal.

 

His declining years are going to be worth more than the $20M that he will be paid during those years. His bat can decline all it wants, pitch framing is an art that isn't dependent upon age or conditioning. Even if in 2017/2018/2019 his bat goes into a decline, he will still be a great catcher, and his WAR alone from his pitch framing skills will offset the cost

[RealAccountant]

I think in the world of baseball a "decision that doesn't pan out" is essentially a bad decision.

 

A lot of things went poorly for him,

 

for example, losing Mcgowan and Marcum in the same year when the team was getting really good. That was just unfortunate. No team can survive with losing two young starters both of whom were looking like they were going to be above average. Just look at the Rays last year.

[xposbrad]

His declining years are going to be worth more than the $20M that he will be paid during those years. His bat can decline all it wants, pitch framing is an art that isn't dependent upon age or conditioning. Even if in 2017/2018/2019 his bat goes into a decline, he will still be a great catcher, and his WAR alone from his pitch framing skills will offset the cost

 

Well we should have signed him to a 10 year deal then, so he can frame into his 40s.

[glory]

I think we should be in perpetual contention mode. That's where Martin comes in. We have some very valuable (win wise) older guys (Martin, Reyes, EE, Bautista) and some very valuable and controllable younger guys (Stroman, Hutch, Pompey, Lawrie, Norris, Sanchez). I see the chance for perpetual contenders.

 

Agreed. As long as the Jays focus on adding impact talent without sacrificing the farm system, then these moves are designed to win short-term and long-term.

 

If the Jays did nothing, then I'd agree with rebuilding, but adding Martin was too good to pass up, and now they should go all in.

[RealAccountant]

Agreed. As long as the Jays focus on adding impact talent without sacrificing the farm system, then these moves are designed to win short-term and long-term.

 

If the Jays did nothing, then I'd agree with rebuilding, but adding Martin was too good to pass up, and now they should go all in.

 

Yes but by all in, Free agency. Dont touch prospects, spend whatever. This team doesn't have very many future obligations.

[saskjayfan]

I'm pretty sure we could have picked up a pitching coach a lot cheaper than $82 million. Sure, Martin will help them more than JPA, but mentoring is not why we paid the big money.

I think our starting pitching will be good in a couple of years, but we're not there yet. By the time these guys mature, we won't be able to hang on to EE or Bautista.

 

You know that money that you don't care about? There's a limit. If we spend $82 million on a 32 year old catcher, we don't renew Bautista/EE, we don't chase after guys like Tanaka or Abreu.

There's a fixed amount of money that Rogers is willing to spend, and if they spend it poorly, then there will be less money available for other purchases.

 

Plus, I have stock in Rogers.

 

so the Jays have zero chance of competing? They finished 5 wins short of wild card birth and Lawrie, EE and Lind all went down at the same time. We had bullpen pieces in Santos and Delabar collapse and janssen missed almost 2 months. Stroman and Hutch have more experience going into next year. Stroman will be with the club full year. Sanchez will also be there a full year, but time will tell in what capacity. Making the playoffs is never easy. The offseason is young and there are plenty of moves that could be made before it's all said and done. To suggest that the Jays should abandon ship because they have no shot is ridiculous. They absolutely have a shot. Will they make the playoffs next year? Who knows. KC hadn't made the playoffs since 85 prior to last year. Maybe next year will be the Jays year. You can never make the playoffs if you don't have good pieces. Martin will be a good piece for the next 5 years.

[Angrioter]

so the Jays have zero chance of competing? They finished 5 wins short of wild card birth and Lawrie, EE and Lind all went down at the same time. We had bullpen pieces in Santos and Delabar collapse and janssen missed almost 2 months. Stroman and Hutch have more experience going into next year. Stroman will be with the club full year. Sanchez will also be there a full year, but time will tell in what capacity. Making the playoffs is never easy. The offseason is young and there are plenty of moves that could be made before it's all said and done. To suggest that the Jays should abandon ship because they have no shot is ridiculous. They absolutely have a shot. Will they make the playoffs next year? Who knows. KC hadn't made the playoffs since 85 prior to last year. Maybe next year will be the Jays year. You can never make the playoffs if you don't have good pieces. Martin will be a good piece for the next 5 years.

 

We aren't the SL Card (Rosenthal). We haven't the depth in the rotation to put Aaron in the Bullpen all year.

Sanchez must pitch at Buffalo as a starter.

[TheHurl]

I think we should be in perpetual contention mode. That's where Martin comes in. We have some very valuable (win wise) older guys (Martin, Reyes, EE, Bautista) and some very valuable and controllable younger guys (Stroman, Hutch, Pompey, Lawrie, Norris, Sanchez). I see the chance for perpetual contenders.

 

flashback to 2 years ago... "keep throwing money at it and we'll get there someday."

 

We have a $150M we better be contenders.

[saskjayfan]

We aren't the SL Card (Rosenthal). We haven't the depth in the rotation to put Aaron in the Bullpen all year.

Sanchez must pitch at Buffalo as a starter.

 

I doubt Sanchez starts at buffalo, but time will tell. Estrada, Happ, Buehrle, Dickey, Stroman, Hutch, Sanchez...that's 7 guys. Norris is an emergency option, and Redmond has started as well. I think it's highly probably moves are made and the names change before spring training, but the depth isn't that bad...the issue is not having the front of the line starters.

[closetjaysfan]

Bautista and Encarnacion will still have value at the end of the 2015 season. Yankees are the weakest they have been in decades. Boston is coming off a bad season. TB is dumping everyone except the batboy. Pitching looks better than it did last year. Jays had the third best WAR at DH last season in MLB.

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=dh&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2014&month=0&season1=2014&ind=0&team=0,ts&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0

 

As it stands, Navarro will likely take Lind's spot as DH. Last year Navarro hit .310; .789 OPS; 123 wRC+ in 77PA as DH. I admit it is a low sample size but even his season stats at all positions were decent enough to make up for the fact that he doesn't have to platoon.

 

Why throw in the towel now?

[JaysRap]

I think at the end of the day you have to look no further than the competition in your own division. Essentially if you can beat out them, you guarantee yourself a playoff spot. So over the next 2 - 3 years, is winning the division from the current structure of the Orioles, Red Sox, Yankees or Rays not possible? I'd argue no; we're right there with them. Moves like getting Russell Martin will probably position us above them. And once you're in the playoffs as Kansas City showed - get hot and it can ride you all the way to the World Series. First thing is just get in.

[GD]

Vintage AG! Love it

[ElNik2013]

AG: I think you're right but this is all happening for the wrong reasons. Our GM is on the hotseat and we have a slim chance to compete so he's taking it. There's no way AA is going to go into a rebuild mode, that's essentially admitting failure on his part.

 

 

Ratings are healthy and attendance is decent, I doubt AA is/was on the hot seat. In reality, he's more likely to have been on the hot seat if he had allowed the team to go into 2013 and 2014 expecting to lose 90 to 100 games. Ratings and attendance would've been quite a bit lower than they've been with the team trying to compete.

 

We'll see what happens.