Top 3 Reasons for 2014 Failure

[reedjohnsonfan]

Navarro was pretty bad. Basically an average catcher at 2.0 WAR but less than that once you deduct framing and it took 500 PAs to get to that 2.0 WAR total which is actually more PAs than JPA got last year and we all thought that was an insane amount of playing time for a second division (at best) starter. The Jays really need to find better catchers to give PAs to. Navarro/Thole wasn't AS brutal as JPA/Thole but the Jays still got very little value out of the position for the second straight year.

 

There's way more problems with the Jays than at catcher. I like Martin even though I'm not into the framing preachers, but he's going to get paid a lot. They'd be better off getting a starter IMO.

[reedjohnsonfan]

I find it funny people are upset with Navarro. He's not a great defensive catcher by any stretch but he's a lot better than JPA. And his bat has also been a big upgrade. As we saw the last few years, you can do a lot worse than having Navarro behind the plate.

[Jimcanuck]

$75M over 4 years.

 

eric kratz worth 19m a year. f*** me

[reedjohnsonfan]

eric kratz worth 19m a year. f*** me

 

I really don't buy into that. I read some stuff on framing. It doesn't seem to be developed nearly enough yet. When Steamer starts using it for their projection system I will start to take it more seriously. Until then, not happening.

[kgm1]

1) Rogers/ Beeston. You don't go into the 2nd year of a Go For It move by cutting off the funds.

 

2) AA , In spite of the lack of funds some moves could have been made. We went into this season with below replacement level players at 2nd and catcher ,No bench and no positional depth and a bunch of injury prone players.

 

3) Bullpen In spite of all the previous s*** had the bullpen been as good as it was the year before the jays might still be in a wild card race.

[reedjohnsonfan]

This makes no sense. If they were asked to project it, they would.

 

I mean, when they use it in their WAR projection. I thought that was clear.

[kgm1]

Martin/Kottaras could be like a 6 Win upgrade over Navarro/Thole. Please make it happen.

 

I whined and bitched about Navarro,s defense all year and without even bringing up pitch framing I believe his defense cost more games than his offense added.

 

But it is a moot point . All AA and Gibby look at is his bat. We are stuck with him at 5 m il for another year. Hopefully he comes to camp in shape this year.

[GeorgiaPeach]

I find it funny people are upset with Navarro. He's not a great defensive catcher by any stretch but he's a lot better than JPA. And his bat has also been a big upgrade. As we saw the last few years, you can do a lot worse than having Navarro behind the plate.

 

It's all about expectations and never being satisfied.

[John_Havok]

I whined and bitched about Navarro,s defense all year and without even bringing up pitch framing I believe his defense cost more games than his offense added.

 

But it is a moot point . All AA and Gibby look at is his bat. We are stuck with him at 5 m il for another year. Hopefully he comes to camp in shape this year.

 

Of course he'll be in shape...the shape of a weird looking circle.

[GeorgiaPeach]

eric kratz worth 19m a year. f*** me

 

I'm still laughing.

[GeorgiaPeach]

Hopefully he comes to camp in shape this year.

 

Keep hoping

[BTS]

It's all about expectations and never being satisfied.

 

It's not really about that at all though. Navarro is a below-average player. Nobody should be satisfied with him as a starter.

[o2cui2i]

The bench to start the season was what? Thole, Sierra and Izturis? What the Hell was Gibby supposed to do with that??? No speed, no good defenders. One bat with power who strikes out all the time. An 8 man pen and a useless bench. Terrible roster management by the GM.

 

Second half of season bench was much improved, but again, too late

 

dude.... you're trying to make the point that I just made. lol have another one. We started the year with a pretty good rotation, a pen that should have been better and 7 position players plus trash that shouldn't have been on the team. We had AAAA players in 2 positions except when Lawrie wasn't injured which was not many games.

 

it was always going to be wrong once AA talked about internal options.

[o2cui2i]

I whined and bitched about Navarro,s defense all year and without even bringing up pitch framing I believe his defense cost more games than his offense added.

 

But it is a moot point . All AA and Gibby look at is his bat. We are stuck with him at 5 m il for another year. Hopefully he comes to camp in shape this year.

 

how many doubles did Pikachu turn into single this year? fat boy has a 4 hit tool and after that it's all down hill.

 

He couldn't run downhill with one of MB's dogs chasing his ass. He was almost as bad as JPA in pitch selection. calling the same pitch over and over is not calling a game. it's being lazy and hoping it works.

 

If the pitch doesn't hit him he wont stop it and hitting his glove doesn't mean he is going to catch it.

 

If Navarro was AWOL for a few more plays on average, he could play SS for Reyes who mailed it in way too many games this year as well.

[GeorgiaPeach]

It's not really about that at all though. Navarro is a below-average player. Nobody should be satisfied with him as a starter.

 

There's others on the team I'm less satisfied with what they provide and what they're paid.

[KingKat]

There's others on the team I'm less satisfied with what they provide and what they're paid.

 

I never said Navarro was the worst thing about this team (that's been implied a few times in the discussion since but it was never my contention). I just brought it up as something noteworthy in the context of this discussion. It may not even be a top 3 weakness but it was definitely one of the weaknesses which combined with many others doomed this team. You can live with Navarro if he's the worst player on your team but there were an awful lot of Navarros and sub Navarros getting playing time for this team.

[GeorgiaPeach]

I never said Navarro was the worst thing about this team (that's been implied a few times in the discussion since but it was never my contention). I just brought it up as something noteworthy in the context of this discussion. It may not even be a top 3 weakness but it was definitely one of the weaknesses which combined with many others doomed this team. You can live with Navarro if he's the worst player on your team but there were an awful lot of Navarros and sub Navarros getting playing time for this team.

 

For sure. And the way this team is currently being run there will always be less than desirable players starting around the diamond.

[Dick_Pole]

Neither are realistic. The chip in the ball would be useless, as already mentioned, due to the strike zone being hitter, and stance, dependent. A hitter's body is somewhat fluid from his setup, until the time he gets ready to swing. It just wouldn't work. And putting the chips in uniforms? Everyone is different. Where a part of the uniform sits on one person is not where that same size uniform would sit on another person. And, of course, uniforms move, naturally (or can be adjusted, intentionally). It's not something that could ever work.

 

If they can make space suits that are good enough for people to do complex mechanical tasks while in orbit, they can make baseball jerseys that can find ways around your issues.

[RealAccountant]

For sure. And the way this team is currently being run there will always be less than desirable players starting around the diamond.

 

Couldn't answer my responses. Figures

 

Problem is, its really common for people to throw around terms like robo umpires without actually thinking about what goes into it.

 

Robo umpires is an endeavor that would cost millions a year for teams, and would probably be even more inconsistent. Furthermore, they leave the possibility of the games being fixed by anyone who can effect the technology both internal to the franchise, and external (I.e. hackers). Umpires are the best method we have of judging baseball games

[Dick_Pole]

eric kratz worth 19m a year. f*** me

 

I love a good old fashioned pitch framing battle. I won't ever go to war for my country but I'll battle to the death over this ludicrous idea that a bunch of non-MLB talent catchers are worth MVP-talent level money because of pitch framing.

 

1. These bums aren't ever going to get enough playing time to capitalize on this theoretical value.

2. Teams can coach their catchers who can actually do well in other aspects of baseball to work on pitch framing as well.

3. If there are 50 MiLB catchers who can provide $75M in excess value, then teams will pick any number of them for league minimum failing #2. It may be a skill which means a lot to winning, but it isn't a rare skill which will be bid up like elite hitting.

4. The value of pitch framing has an expiry date should MLB decide to take strike subjectivity out of the umps hands.

[GeorgiaPeach]

Couldn't answer my responses. Figures

 

Problem is, its really common for people to throw around terms like robo umpires without actually thinking about what goes into it.

 

They were stand-alone comments I was throwing around and wasn't serious about. So I didn't really care to continue the conversation on them. If you think I seek out who's responding to me so I can respond back, prepare for disappointment.

 

The idea I was most serious about was the Pitch F/X screen.

[G-Snarls]

Kottaras catching Dickey could be a huge difference. I don't think much would be lost on the knuckleball catching part, and Kottaras is projected for a 112 wRC+. Thole ~85.

 

If he can hit that much better than Thole...

 

I'm all for Navarro spending less time catching and being used as DH when Lind can't or shouldn't. Would also be very useful off the bench as a PH in games where he doesn't start.

 

A 3/5 catcher rather than 4/5 if Navarro has to stay

Edited September 25, 2014 by G-Snarls

[KingKat]

Kottaras catching Dickey could be a huge difference. I don't think much would be lost on the knuckleball catching part, and Kottaras is projected for a 112 wRC+. Thole ~85.

 

Did Kottaras catch him in September? I really wish the team would at least try to weane Dickey off Thole.

[G-Snarls]

[RealAccountant]

"take it more seriously" and "projection system" don't belong in the same sentence.

 

Moogy and good poster don't either

 

 

 

 

 

Haha just kidding bud you're on of the best posters here

 

 

 

 

 

 

315 AM f*** my life.