Was bringing NL superstars to the AL East ultimately AA's downfall?

[jays76]

If you were AA circa late 2012 and you had the chance to bring a NL CY winning pitcher, two other NL pitchers with perennial front of the rotation stuff, a NL batting champion with speed as your lead off hitter, and another potential NL batting champion rehabbing his image fresh off a steroid suspension would you do it? Bring all these players to a team that was relatively competitive and seemingly a few pieces away from taking over the AL East from the aging Red Sox & Yankees, would you make these deals? Before going apeshit please take into consideration that hindsight is always 20/20 and it's easy now to see that he should've used his money elsewhere given the results but at that time was it really so predictable that this move would implode? I admit there were injury concerns with a few of these players but would you have taken the gamble..

 

Given the Jays position in late 2012 was AA justified in making these moves in spite of injury concerns or was his fatal error seriously misjudging the transition needed from these NL superstars coming over to the AL East, arguably the toughest division in baseball. Should he have sought high caliber players from within the AL? And would that have made a huge difference as all these players have struggled with the AL East transition except Melky (who ironically at the time was seen as the biggest gamble) and perhaps to a lesser degree Buehrle who like the Melkman also had past AL experience.

 

Again please take into consideration your feelings at the time of the trade instead of your present day bitterness, I'll admit that I for one was over the moon when it happened. Heck all the supposed pros in Vegas even had this team pegged as the overwhelming favorite to win the WS. Was AA justified in his rationale to overthrow the division in spite of the incoming injury concerns or was the massive flaw the Inter league transition struggles that he didn't foresee, thoughts?

Edited August 23, 2014 by jays76

[BTS]

No. An inability to understand where wins come from was his downfall.

[GD]

gonna go with no

[jaysfan2014]

Most teams would probably have made that trade as well. Josh Johnson was getting offers from other teams as well, not just the Jays. And we needed veteran help on the staff.

[TheHurl]

yes that is exactly what he did. If Clayton Kershaw becomes available we should pass cause his numbers are obviously 100% based on facing a pitcher 3 times a night.

 

Hopefully this "Can't compete in the AL East" crap will stop now that all the divisions are pretty much equal offensively (if anything the AL West and Central can complain)

Edited August 22, 2014 by TheHurl

[Chappy]

**facepalm**

[G-Snarls]

**facepalm**

 

So... no?

 

[Deadpool]

This thread is amazing

[o2cui2i]

No. An inability to understand where wins come from was his downfall.

 

I disagree... it's because Rogers' definition of win has nothing to do with baseball. they have an incompetent GM and CEO and think it doesn't matter if they win as long as they turn a profit.

 

If Rogers cared about baseball in Toronto and having a winning team, this teams front office would have been cleared out long ago.

[jays76]

Most teams would probably have made that trade as well. Josh Johnson was getting offers from other teams as well, not just the Jays. And we needed veteran help on the staff.

 

He was a big X-factor in the Miami trade and I've heard that AA only wanted JJ & Reyes but the only way it was going to happen was if Buehrle and his fat contract was included. I really believe the Jays had hopes of Johnson being their 1 or 2 and were open to re-signing if he delivered, sadly we know how that turned out..

Edited August 23, 2014 by jays76

[Slider]

Maybe this thread is trying to say...in the future, don't trade for NL All stars?

[jays76]

Maybe this thread is trying to say...in the future, don't trade for NL All stars?

 

More just wondering if it's a tougher transition for NL players to come over to the AL and specifically the AL East as opposed to vice versa. @TheHurl sarcastically responded about passing on Clayton Kershaw because he faces pitchers 3 times a night so he's not worth the risk. Of course Kershaw's worth the risk because he's an absolute elite pitcher but how do good NL pitchers like the Madison Bumgarner's, Mat Latos's, and Jon Niese's of the world fare? Is there parity between the two leagues and if so how much, is this a thing and actually something GM's should consider when making interleague trades?

[ElNik2013]

Here's a little glimpse into how against trading for one of those NL All Stars some posters were at the old MLB board:

 

 

http://www.forums.mlb.com/discussions/Toronto_Blue_Jays/General/Blue_Jays_Jose_Reyes_press_conference_Thursday_afternoon/ml-bluejays/88478.1?redirCnt=1&nav=messages

[ElNik2013]

Here are quotes from 2012 by 2 posters now calling AA "incompetent":

 

Poster 1:

the players just have to remember that they actually have to show up and play all 162 games.

 

 

Poster 2:

The Jays could start the season 40-40 and still make the playoffs relatively easy

 

 

And ECJF takes all that flak...I demand an apology for ECJF.

[ElNik2013]

Angrioter's dumber twin brother prior to the start of the 2013 season:

 

 

Rays is a decent baseball team but....

 

-Dickey knuckleball

-JJ final year contract (looking Cain/Hamels money)

-Buehrle 200IP

-Morrow new version

-Lineup (Pop, contact, speed and OBP)

 

Jays have a very balancing team, this is the year.

[ElNik2013]

Here's another gem (:

 

 

Kevin Millar picked the Red Sox and Yankees to finish ahead of the jays in 2013. just proves that Millar, although it's almost unimaginable, is dumber than he looks.

Edited August 23, 2014 by ElNik2013

[Jay Train]

No. An inability to understand where wins come from was his downfall.

 

Well if wins don't come from aging fragile superstars I don't want to know where they come from!

[G-Snarls]

Maybe this thread is trying to say...in the future, don't trade for NL All stars?

 

Yes. Have to make sure we avoid acquiring Tulowitski or Giancarlo Stanton. Obviously they'd be terrible in the all mighty AL East.

[RealAccountant]

I think not signing Darvish started the downfall, because not signing him caused the Jays to go out there and blow prospects and eventually waste the same money anyways for less wins

 

Anyways whats done is done

[ElNik2013]

Let's see some direct attribution. 95% of the hive is about calling everyone outside the hive stoopit, constantly getting everything they forecast wrong, and going forward as if nothing happened and that their next recitation of "dumbest post ever" will carry some meaning.

 

 

 

The quotes I posted were from the MLB board so I don't know for sure if it's the same guys, but 2 were from "o2cui2i", 1 from "stangstag" and the others from "angrioterr".

 

 

Just to point out that a lot of us have 0 credibility yet are unwilling to look in the mirror. As you point out, some other posters here get things continually wrong, yet go on calling others idiots.

[jays76]

I think not signing Darvish started the downfall, because not signing him caused the Jays to go out there and blow prospects and eventually waste the same money anyways for less wins

 

Anyways whats done is done

 

Yeah I agree, we were the second highest bidder and off by less than 10M I believe? I remember people going batshit at the time to get him & Prince Fielder. You never how things would've ended up for us but we could have used those prospects elsewhere and having Darvish lead our rotation is a pretty damn appealing thought right now.

[TheHurl]

More just wondering if it's a tougher transition for NL players to come over to the AL and specifically the AL East as opposed to vice versa. @TheHurl sarcastically responded about passing on Clayton Kershaw because he faces pitchers 3 times a night so he's not worth the risk. Of course Kershaw's worth the risk because he's an absolute elite pitcher but how do good NL pitchers like the Madison Bumgarner's, Mat Latos's, and Jon Niese's of the world fare? Is there parity between the two leagues and if so how much, is this a thing and actually something GM's should consider when making interleague trades?

 

I think the data going into the 2011 season was approximately .40 ERA (increase for NL coming to AL/decrease going the other way) and about 0.5 K/9. Not sure if the data is getting closer or not.

[comeon sense]

At first i thought WOW!

Buerhle,Dickey,Johnson,Reyes,and Melky.

 

Vegas agreed,but injuries will always seemingly kill us.

 

Now i want guys that have at most, A.L. East experience,who can play,and have good character etc..fundamentally sound,those types of things.

AA may be being bashed more for not doing much during the deadline,but he was being offered s***,and yet i,ve read where we should have got McCarthy.

Guys without A.L. East experience can also play for us,if they promise to practice fundamentals-LOL.

[Dick_Pole]

f***ing people and their NL bashing. Sure a pitcher faces another pitcher a couple times a night, but they also have to hit too. The AL pitchers can 100% dedicate themselves to pitching and if you believe the premise that elite millionaire athletes can have the fitness level of James Gandolfini, they don't have to deal with the "fatigue" factor of hitting or running the basepaths the 10% of the time they actually make it on base.

[Dick_Pole]

Let's see some direct attribution. 95% of the hive is about calling everyone outside the hive stoopit, constantly getting everything they forecast wrong, and going forward as if nothing happened and that their next recitation of "dumbest post ever" will carry some meaning.

 

Dude, the myth of the hive went down the toilet when there was 20 pages dedicated to Erik Krapz with the laughable notion that he's worth $75 million in excess value, and the board was pretty split down the middle about it.

[GNick49]

If you were AA circa late 2012 and you had the chance to bring a NL CY winning pitcher, two other NL pitchers with perennial front of the rotation stuff, a NL batting champion with speed as your lead off hitter, and another potential NL batting champion rehabbing his image fresh off a steroid suspension would you do it? Bring all these players to a team that was relatively competitive and seemingly a few pieces away from taking over the AL East from the aging Red Sox & Yankees, would you make these deals? Before going apeshit please take into consideration that hindsight is always 20/20 and it's easy now to see that he should've used his money elsewhere given the results but at that time was it really so predictable that this move would implode? I admit there were injury concerns with a few of these players but would you have taken the gamble..

 

Given the Jays position in late 2012 was AA justified in making these moves in spite of injury concerns or was his fatal error seriously misjudging the transition needed from these NL superstars coming over to the AL East, arguably the toughest division in baseball. Should he have sought high caliber players from within the AL? And would that have made a huge difference as all these players have struggled with the AL East transition except Melky (who ironically at the time was seen as the biggest gamble) and perhaps to a lesser degree Buehrle who like the Melkman also had past AL experience.

 

Again please take into consideration your feelings at the time of the trade instead of your present day bitterness, I'll admit that I for one was over the moon when it happened. Heck all the supposed pros in Vegas even had this team pegged as the overwhelming favorite to win the WS. Was AA justified in his rationale to overthrow the division in spite of the incoming injury concerns or was the massive flaw the Inter league transition struggles that he didn't foresee, thoughts?

 

NL pitchers give up so many more homeruns moving to AL their era spike crazy. Why so many #1 in NL are #3 starters in AL. And visa-versa. They are 2 totally different leagues. Even Jeff Samardzija HR9 has doubled since coming to AL. Increasing his ERA to around 4, and that's playing in Oakland. Nightmare to think if we gave up a bluechipper to watch him pitch at Rogers. While Alvarez can do so well in Miami compared to Toronto. He doesn't give up any homeruns. His HR9 is 0.4 in Miami compared to 1.3 in Toronto. He's giving up 1 homerun less per game. Which is dropping his ERA a full 2 runs.

Edited August 24, 2014 by GNick49

[John_Havok]

Dude, the myth of the hive went down the toilet when there was 20 pages dedicated to Erik Krapz with the laughable notion that he's worth $75 million in excess value, and the board was pretty split down the middle about it.

 

Not to mention the fact that the "hive mind" these idiots keep referring to is still the huge minority voice when it comes to baseball as a whole. I guess it's okay for the old school to be a hive mind, just not anyone else.

[glory]

His downfall was not sticking to the original plan. It may have been ownership's call to win right away after the 2012 season, but regardless, that was the beginning of the end in hindsight. The Jays could have been sitting on Stroman, Sanchez, Norris, Syndergaard, Nicolino, etc, in the minors or just reaching the Majors, with Hutch and Alvarez already up. d'Arnaud at C, Marisnick an option at CF, Escobar at short on a cheap contract, etc.

 

With the AL East being as winnable as its ever been, waiting would have been the best option. Hindsight and all.

[TwistedLogic]

Yes. Have to make sure we avoid acquiring Tulowitski or Giancarlo Stanton. Obviously they'd be terrible in the all mighty AL East.

You're not talking about Troy Tulowitzki of the Rockies are you? The shortstop at the top of his game, with a long history of lower body injuries, a lifelong NL player, who'd transfer into an AL, turf-based stadium, has a huge financial commitment attached, and would also cost a premium in prospects?

 

Yeah, your sarcasm was totally warranted there, since he sounds nothing like Jose Reyes circa 2012.

 

Lol, you're better than that, G.

[GD]

What exactly does being a life long NL player have to do with anything?