Offseason roster thread 2014

[kgm1]

Here we go again... Another failed season by the fat man and the next round of delusional excuses and justifications by an old man who'd rather hold on to his false beliefs to the dying breath. I know it's hard to believe, but after 5 long years, AA still hasn't been able to assemble a complete roster and has completely neglected the importance of depth or even defense at such key position as the catcher. You can ignore that and keep whining and moaning about the ownership all you like but you're only fooling yourself.

 

I was Navarro's biggest critic on this board this year and if you read my posts at all the one thing i kept pointing to as to why i felt this team at best was an 86 win team was positional depth which we had none and below replacement level players at catcher ,2nd base and LF . I did not expect Melky to come back from serious back surgery. he should win comeback players of the year to come back from seriuos back surgery

[kgm1]

Maybe the best approach is to have Beeston retire, and move AA up to President. That may be a better fit for him anyway. Then pay a bunch to lure a proven great GM away from someone

 

Why would they do that ??

 

The best approach is to get a president that knows baseball. Give AA his 3rd year and some money to try and win but AA has done nothing to prove he can be a president

[kgm1]

I give AA a pass for two reasons. The biggest one is the farm talent he has brought in. More and higher ceilings than the previous two GMs did together and 2) I firmly believe he was pushed to make big moves by ownership and especially Beeston.

 

Now sure we can fire AA and clean house and start all over and as long as the next team does as good a job drafting and developing ( I think the Jays fall down in this area) then I'll fully support the move but after years of Gord Ass and JP Retarded I look at better the devil I know.

 

No secret he went into this year with no bench , a s***** catcher, and an all defense no hit 2nd baseman. DM got the Royals into the playoffs in his 9th season, Ashes had 7 years and Retarded had 8. AA has had 5 years, I can give him a couple more.

[Smokey]

 

 

I never said you're not allowed to criticize the GM. But others are also allowed to criticize ownership for not firing him, if in fact he's not doing a satisfactory job.

 

Now we're just going in circles. I've made my point already and if you want to interject and scream out "ownership" every time someone criticizes AA, then I guess that's your prerogative. But lets please not get this twisted and make it sound like someone is preventing you from expressing your concerns.

 

 

 

It's just to point out that you, I and others, don't know as much as we think we know.

 

I'll be the first person to acknowledge that, and as a result, I try to not speak about things that are difficult to verify (such as the extent to which the ownership is influencing AA's decisions or if they're actually capable of finding a proper replacement). That being said, do I really need to be an expert to realize that AA has no idea how to assemble a complete roster?? Do I need to be a catching instructor to realize that JPA just wasn't good enough to be the primary catcher on a competitive team? Or the fact that it's not smart to hand a starting job to a 26 year old all glove 2B who has never shown the ability to handle major league pitching?? Oh yeah, that's right, who cares about that s*** because OWNERSHIP!!!!

[Abomination]

Why would they do that ??

 

The best approach is to get a president that knows baseball. Give AA his 3rd year and some money to try and win but AA has done nothing to prove he can be a president

 

AA knows baseball just fine for the position of president. Half of it is liaising with the ownership anyway from what I understand, with the other half coordinating everything that isn't related specifically to players. It's far less critical than it is for the GM who actually signs the players, and having someone as President who was actually a GM can only be an advantage.

[RealAccountant]

With the Royals qualifying the Jays are officially the worst franchise in baseball

[Smokey]

No secret he went into this year with no bench , a s***** catcher, and an all defense no hit 2nd baseman. DM got the Royals into the playoffs in his 9th season, Ashes had 7 years and Retarded had 8. AA has had 5 years, I can give him a couple more.

 

So basically, AA doesn't understand baseball but needs to be given a longer leash because Ash got 7 years and JP got 8 and that would only be fair.

 

Makes sense.

[Abomination]

Getting back to the spirit of the thread, I'll throw a crazy one out there. I wonder how much the Yankees would be willing to eat of A-Rod's contract to get rid of him? If they were to cover, say, half his contract, plus the bonuses if he reaches them, and take back Romero and Izzy (which would free up money next year for us)... They'd get Izzy plus save about 23M and the headaches, and we can plop him at 3rd and move Lawrie to 2nd. He probably earns roughly the 10M / year we'd be paying.

[burlingtonbandit]

I'm not sure why people keep bringing this up. We all know that nobody at Rogers understands baseball. There's no reason to complain about it because A) they aren't going to sell the team, and it's possible to have a sustained run of success with them as the owners. If they're going to provide a top-10 payroll, the team can win under their ownership. They just have to hire the right President. On the other hand, I don't think this team can win under Beeston and AA. They need to be fired ASAP so Rogers can take another kick at the can and attempt to hire a competent President.

 

Rogers won't fire AA though because as long as fans think its the fault of the GM on why the team is doing poorly they don't care. Rogers will do everything it can to not blame themselves and as soon as people start questioning ownership, they will tell the GM to add payroll.

 

Rogers does not give a s*** if the team actually wins as long as they make money.. If Rogers had the choice of winning a championship and producing 5 million in profit or have a losing season and make 25 million in profit they are choosing the latter of the 2.

[burlingtonbandit]

Getting back to the spirit of the thread, I'll throw a crazy one out there. I wonder how much the Yankees would be willing to eat of A-Rod's contract to get rid of him? If they were to cover, say, half his contract, plus the bonuses if he reaches them, and take back Romero and Izzy (which would free up money next year for us)... They'd get Izzy plus save about 23M and the headaches, and we can plop him at 3rd and move Lawrie to 2nd. He probably earns roughly the 10M / year we'd be paying.

 

Not worth the massive headache and distraction he brings to the team. Also he's a huge Dbag who no one in baseball like or respects anymore.

[ElNik2013]

Now we're just going in circles. I've made my point already and if you want to interject and scream out "ownership" every time someone criticizes AA, then I guess that's your prerogative. But lets please not get this twisted and make it sound like someone is preventing you from expressing your concerns.

 

 

 

Yes we are going in circles. We probably agree more than we disagree, but as you said earlier, we'll wait till after the season to see whether or not ownership thinks 5 years is enough to give a F/O to make the playoffs, including 2 with a top 10 payroll. I would fire him if I were them and look to hire Friedman away from the Rays...Imagine how much money they'd make with an efficiently put together team, but that's just me.

 

I'll be the first person to acknowledge that, and as a result, I try to not speak about things that are difficult to verify (such as the extent to which the ownership is influencing AA's decisions or if they're actually capable of finding a proper replacement). That being said, do I really need to be an expert to realize that AA has no idea how to assemble a complete roster?? Do I need to be a catching instructor to realize that JPA just wasn't good enough to be the primary catcher on a competitive team? Or the fact that it's not smart to hand a starting job to a 26 year old all glove 2B who has never shown the ability to handle major league pitching?? Oh yeah, that's right, who cares about that s*** because OWNERSHIP!!!!

 

 

I actually posted above, (if you look for it, you shall find it) that by now, information would've come out that revealed ownership or upper management interference and since none has come out, AA should be held accountable. On the other hand, ownership may disagree.

 

You keep bringing up JPA and Goins as if I ever said those were smart moves, but anyway, it's no big deal. I do wish you had answered the question regarding which teams have assembled "complete rosters", but it's no biggie, it's best to leave it at that.

 

Again, I told you I never said you couldn't criticize the GM. My issue with ownership is that they're the one constant since 2000 while they've had 3 different GM's and I think 2 Presidents.

 

Anyway, we'll see what happens after the season's over. Hopefully, they'll go out and get a guy like Friedman.

[G-Snarls]

I don't agree with it all Woodman but it's all very well presented and backed up by serious thought.

[KingKat]

 

Free Agents

Nick Markakis: 2-3 years @ 8 mil a year (Can debate numbers)

 

I find the tought of Markakis intriguing. Good OFs who don't have sexy offensive numbers seem to make good value plays.

[G-Snarls]

I don't agree with it either, I am just doing it from the point of view of how AA will likely look at it with specific ways he will back himself up into a corner. I also over estimate the free agency value since it usually costs us more to sign players. I also assume we get nothing back for Lind, Happ and Buerhle for the major league team when in reality we could probably get 2-3 pen arms for it at least.

 

I think we end up with sub par defenders in LF and RF next year no matter what we want. I can't see AA signing Markakis. The focus may have to be on improving the infield defense and making sure the rotation has as many ground ball guys as possible. (Eg. Sanchez, not Happ)

[G-Snarls]

I agree, I have the bar set very low. I just let myself get carried away as to what we could realistically get done under our budget without completely gutting the farm system while building up some major league level depth.

 

Well yeah exactly. No point being unrealistic and saying you want MB to be traded for a cheap stud MIF and saying you'll sign Scherzer within the savings. We all want that but ain't gonna happen.

[jays4life19]

I find the tought of Markakis intriguing. Good OFs who don't have sexy offensive numbers seem to make good value plays.

 

Nori Aoki is a much better option and fit's in with the above.

[G-Snarls]

Nori Aoki is a much better option and fit's in with the above.

 

Good call

 

Look, I'm all for signing Melky if he agrees to a reasonable 3-4 year deal. If he won't, taking a draft pick and signing Aoki is a good plan B.

 

I just don't want AA to let Melky walk and then decide he's fine with his "internal options" for the OF. I'll be honest - Part of my desire to keep Melky is because of my fear that he won't sign anyone to replace him if he walks.

Edited September 29, 2014 by G-Snarls

[jays4life19]

Also, he can play all 3 OF spots.

 

Aoki just makes a ton of sense which is why we probably won't sign him.

[KingKat]

Also, he can play all 3 OF spots.

 

He's 2 years older than Markakis which in this case I think is a plus because he should be willing to sign for a shorter term.

[jays4life19]

Well if we had both Markakis and Aoki agreeing to sign and we have to pick one, I might still pick Markakis since he is more likely to bounce back and have a big offensive season where Aoki is limited in that regard.

 

Markakis technically had his best season since 2010. He's a poor defender who didn't hit last year and was just above average this year. I think Aoki is a little safer because you know he's going to be a plus defender (who can play CF in a pinch - aka not Joey Bats) and at least an average bat and should cost less.

 

Edit: Okay, maybe not as good as a defender then i thought. Still way better then Markakis.

[Sammy225]

This is just a shot in the dark. Is it maybe time to move Joey Bats from outfield to first. He did not look out of place at all there last year when he started there. Decline Lind (then you don't have to worry about finding a platoon guy for him. EE could be full time DH and start at first when Jose needs time off. Have Pompey/Gose Melky and Aoki maybe in the outfield. Just things running through my head last night.

[G-Snarls]

This is just a shot in the dark. Is it maybe time to move Joey Bats from outfield to first. He did not look out of place at all there last year when he started there. Decline Lind (then you don't have to worry about finding a platoon guy for him. EE could be full time DH and start at first when Jose needs time off. Have Pompey/Gose Melky and Aoki maybe in the outfield. Just things running through my head last night.

 

This is inevitable but not just yet I think

[KingKat]

This is inevitable but not just yet I think

 

Hard to consider moving Bautista from the OF when he's the only veteran OF under control.

[burlingtonbandit]

This is inevitable but not just yet I think

 

I hate all the talk making it sound like Bautista is a butcher in the OF. His range his declining but he still has produced an above average UZR in RF the last 3 years. Its not his fault he was thrown into CF which made his defence look a lot worse than it is.

 

Seems like people look at the DEF value on Fangraphs which includes positional adjustment and automatically thinks he sucks in the OF, which is clearly not the case. He's not the GG Buck and Pat always say he is but he is far from needing to be moved off the position..

 

Edit: Just so people can see the evidence: http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1887&position=3B/OF

[KingKat]

I'm surprised at how bad Markakis' OF defense is. When someone has been around a long time and they don't hit that much, you just kind of assume that they have defensive value.

 

Markakis technically had his best season since 2010. He's a poor defender who didn't hit last year and was just above average this year. I think Aoki is a little safer because you know he's going to be a plus defender (who can play CF in a pinch - aka not Joey Bats) and at least an average bat and should cost less.

 

Edit: Okay, maybe not as good as a defender then i thought. Still way better then Markakis.

[burlingtonbandit]

You're on the right track.

 

If you're going to stick with much of this "nucleus" ...

 

2B Reyes

LF Aoki

1B Bautista

DH Encarnacion

3B Lawrie

SS Drew

C Navarro

RF Pompey

CF Gose/Pillar

 

 

And I'd be hardcore looking to package Lawrie plus a young pitcher or two ... or three (Sanchez, Norris, etc.), for a durable, studly 3B. Come on, Billy ... I know you want to part with Donaldson ... it'll make you feel good.

 

Go out and get yourself a mid-rotation innings eater (or better) ... McCarthy, Masterson, Santana, Peavy

 

Sign some value bullpen arms ... and run with it.

 

Why would you want to move Bautista who plays an average or better RF to 1B where he plays that position below average?

[glory]

How much would Aoki command? Something like 3/15 or 3/18? He would be a good fit here. No power but versatile defensive OF that can get on base. Decent lead-off option moving Reyes to the 2 spot. Much safer signing than Melky.

[Chappy]

Lol @ signing FA's. It's like finding a unicorn.

[glory]

Looks like Papelbon has crotch-grabbed his way out of Philly. If Amaro agreed to take Romero and Izturis, does either team do it? I can't see any other team taking Papelbon at $13M, but he fills a need for the Jays.

[burlingtonbandit]

Looks like Papelbon has crotch-grabbed his way out of Philly. If Amaro agreed to take Romero and Izturis, does either team do it? I can't see any other team taking Papelbon at $13M, but he fills a need for the Jays.

 

Why the f*** would the Phillies want Romero and Izturis?