Offseason roster thread 2014

[jaysblue]

Yeah. Even if you have to kick in like $2 million, I don't think you let that stop you from signing Martin. If Martin makes sense at like 3/30 or whatever he's going to get, he makes sense at 3/32.

 

Those are realistic terms. I can't believe numbers like 4/60 and 3/50 are getting thrown around for Martin, geez.

[GD]

Those are realistic terms. I can't believe numbers like 4/60 and 3/50 are getting thrown around for Martin, geez.

 

He may not get that but he's worth it imo.

[jaysblue]

He may not get that but he's worth it imo.

 

I think you're looking way too much into his 2014 numbers. He's likely going to regress.

 

The Blue Jays are in no position to give him 4/60 this offseason and even if I was a GM of any other team, I wouldn't dare come close to those terms.

[jays4life19]

I think you're looking way too much into his 2014 numbers. He's likely going to regress.

 

The Blue Jays are in no position to give him 4/60 this offseason and even if I was a GM of any other team, I wouldn't dare come close to those terms.

 

His 2013 numbers would suggest he's worth it too.

[GD]

I think you're looking way too much into his 2014 numbers. He's likely going to regress.

 

The Blue Jays are in no position to give him 4/60 this offseason and even if I was a GM of any other team, I wouldn't dare come close to those terms.

 

I haven't looked at his 2014 numbers at all lol. He's a 2-3 win catcher based on fangraphs stats alone. Then you add in framing an 4/50 seems like a bargain when he gets to a 4-5 win player.

[John_Havok]

I haven't looked at his 2014 numbers at all lol. He's a 2-3 win catcher based on fangraphs stats alone. Then you add in framing an 4/50 seems like a bargain when he gets to a 4-5 win player.

 

That doesn't mean you have to pay him like one if the market doesn't pay for framing. Also, being on the wrong side of 30 as a catcher and you really need to go to 4 years, that's a lot of risk on a position notorious for bad health. 2 years(24m) plus an option for 12 more(1.5 buyout) is as far as I would go, give or take 1 million per year if that's what it took.

[jays4life19]

That doesn't mean you have to pay him like one if the market doesn't pay for framing. Also, being on the wrong side of 30 as a catcher and you really need to go to 4 years, that's a lot of risk on a position notorious for bad health. 2 years(24m) plus an option for 12 more(1.5 buyout) is as far as I would go, give or take 1 million per year if that's what it took.

 

That's fair. But that means you don't have a chance to sign him. In a market where McCann gets 85 million - 2 years and 24 million Martin laughs at.

[BTS]

The Yankees look pretty stupid for letting Martin walk and giving McCann that massive contract a year later.

[John_Havok]

That's fair. But that means you don't have a chance to sign him. In a market where McCann gets 85 million - 2 years and 24 million Martin laughs at.

 

Except Martin doesn't have the offensive numbers that teams still covet, rightly or wrongly. Martin is not McCann in the eyes of baseball FO's everywhere, so why would AA be forced to pay a McCann-esque contract for him?

 

I'm not arguing that he isn't valuable, I'm just saying that his type of value is not one that gets guys the big pay days so there's no need to set that precedent if you don't have too.

[jays4life19]

Except Martin doesn't have the offensive numbers that teams still covet, rightly or wrongly. Martin is not McCann in the eyes of baseball FO's everywhere, so why would AA be forced to pay a McCann-esque contract for him?

 

I'm not arguing that he isn't valuable, I'm just saying that his type of value is not one that gets guys the big pay days so there's no need to set that precedent if you don't have too.

 

139 wRC+ is pretty legit. 288/411/410 (821 OPS) also legit. 369 wOBA pretty much legit too. Pretty sure most FO's can understand the value he brings.

[John_Havok]

139 wRC+ is pretty legit. 288/411/410 (821 OPS) also legit. 369 wOBA pretty much legit too. Pretty sure most FO's can understand the value he brings.

 

You overestimate a lot of front offices, which means the ones that do understand his value, won't have to pay through the nose for it.

 

Add to that his season this year is a pretty big outlier from the 5 prior to this.

[jays4life19]

You overestimate a lot of front offices, which means the ones that do understand his value, won't have to pay through the nose for it.

 

Okay. So Front offices like the Bluejays who like OPS will like him and everyone else who likes wRC+ ( or whatever advanced metrics they use) will like him too?. Then add his elite framing and defense = $$

[Chappy]

We are not getting Martin. I'm willing to bet AA is ok with Navarro.

[ElNik2013]

The Jays were the only team who thought Navarro anything more than a backup catcher bat off the bench. I said when they signed him his defense was horrible but all posters could think was we got rid of JPA . Bitch all you want JPA was always in shape.

 

The only ones I know that stated he was likely replacement level was BTS and ME.

 

We now are going to pay the laziest catcher in Baseball 5 mil and trust me NO one wants him. He is FAT and out of shape and LAZY. As decent as his bat has been he has cost us more runs than he produces IMO.

 

The biggest move AA could make to improve this team is signing Martin . Won't happen thou.

 

EDIT I might add that AA and Gibbons have never even heard of pitch framing or they would have never dealt Kratz

 

 

Not even the GM that signed him was excited about him. If you want to feel good by gloating over something noone gives a f*** about, go ahead, but Navarro's a bad catcher because he's a bad catcher, not necessarily 'cause he's fat or Jose Molina would suck balls since he's f***ing fatter.

 

Anyway, at least you took some shots at AA instead of always blaming Beeston for everything AA has done wrong.

[BTS]

I really hope Reimold is non tendered. There's no way this guy should be making $1.5 million next year, or whatever he'll get via arb.

[burlingtonbandit]

Okay. So Front offices like the Bluejays who like OPS will like him and everyone else who likes wRC+ ( or whatever advanced metrics they use) will like him too?. Then add his elite framing and defense = $$

 

But elite framing and defence does not equal $ on the open market. If you can pick up a Kratz for a below average middle reliever you do not need to pay a lot of $ for Martin. The BABIP is a huge outlier and the power is way down in a career year. Would you rather sign Martin for 15million/year for a 100wRC+ or a great framer with a 80wRC+ for league min.?

[GD]

^In the context of this team, probably Martin. We need every win we can get.

 

Also, fwiw, his mean true talent projection is closer to 110 than 100.

[burlingtonbandit]

^In the context of this team, probably Martin. We need every win we can get.

 

Also, fwiw, his mean true talent projection is closer to 110 than 100.

 

Yeah thats a very reasonable projection for next year but he is getting old and catchers don't last forever. If you go 4 years though you might regret it next year or most likely the year after. I'm all for upgrading the catcher's position and getting a much better defensive catcher.

[jays4life19]

But elite framing and defence does not equal $ on the open market. If you can pick up a Kratz for a below average middle reliever you do not need to pay a lot of $ for Martin. The BABIP is a huge outlier and the power is way down in a career year. Would you rather sign Martin for 15million/year for a 100wRC+ or a great framer with a 80wRC+ for league min.?

 

Martin is appealing for this team for a couple reasons.

 

1. As you mentioned elite framing and defense is under valued so it's an opportunity to cash in on an under valued skill set while not sacrificing offense to get it. Ie - Kratz.

 

2. It's a chance to acquire wins without giving up assets (talent). We all know AA has a tough time in finding wins via the FA market. Martin would represent a massive upgrade at a vital position. I personally don't give a s*** that he's Canadian, but the fact he is and knows we don't live in Igloos should put us on a equal playing field to acquire him. I'm not sure how many premium free agents will be lining up in the future to play in our s***** stadium in the good ol north unless we're clearly paying top $$.

 

3. Unless AA is fired we know a full scale rebuild is not going to happen. With the right moves i think this team could compete. You could probably get a top of the rotation starter from the Reds ( Matt Latos?) Add Russell Martin at catcher and maybe you can afford to trade Dickey to help pay for Martin because of the development of guys like Hutch, Stroman and Norris. A rotation of Matt Latos, Marcus Stroman, Mark Buehrle, Drew Hutchinson and JA Happ/Daniel Norris/Aaron Sanchez ect could be good enough with the Bats we have.

[z3r0s]

Martin is appealing for this team for a couple reasons.

 

1. As you mentioned elite framing and defense is under valued so it's an opportunity to cash in on an under valued skill set while not sacrificing offense to get it. Ie - Kratz.

 

2. It's a chance to acquire wins without giving up assets (talent). We all know AA has a tough time in finding wins via the FA market. Martin would represent a massive upgrade at a vital position. I personally don't give a s*** that he's Canadian, but the fact he is and knows we don't live in Igloos should put us on a equal playing field to acquire him. I'm not sure how many premium free agents will be lining up in the future to play in our s***** stadium in the good ol north unless we're clearly paying top $$.

 

3. Unless AA is fired we know a full scale rebuild is not going to happen. With the right moves i think this team could compete. You could probably get a top of the rotation starter from the Reds ( Matt Latos?) Add Russell Martin at catcher and maybe you can afford to trade Dickey to help pay for Martin because of the development of guys like Hutch, Stroman and Norris. A rotation of Matt Latos, Marcus Stroman, Mark Buehrle, Drew Hutchinson and JA Happ/Daniel Norris/Aaron Sanchez ect could be good enough with the Bats we have.

 

How are we getting Latos while keeping Stroman, Hutch, Norris and Sanchez?

[jaysblue]

139 wRC+ is pretty legit. 288/411/410 (821 OPS) also legit. 369 wOBA pretty much legit too. Pretty sure most FO's can understand the value he brings.

 

2014 numbers. Last time he provided similar results?

[jays4life19]

How are we getting Latos while keeping Stroman, Hutch, Norris and Sanchez?

 

It was just an example. The Reds pretty much have to trade at least one starter this off season with Latos probably being the most likely to go. Let's say you trade Aaron Sanchez and a low level prospect for him. Then you still have Latos, Stroman, Hutch, Buehrle and Happ/Norris/Nolin

[jays4life19]

2014 numbers. Last time he provided similar results?

 

He put up a 4.1 fWAR season in 2013 hitting 101 wRC+. Let's say you project him to hit around 110 wRC+ next season he should still put up around 4fWAR and that's not taking into account his elite framing.

[glory]

Bautista to Boston for Betts, Swihart, and Escobar

 

Encarnacion to Pittsburgh for Glasnow and Tabata

 

Who says no first?

[z3r0s]

Bautista to Boston for Betts, Swihart, and Escobar

 

Encarnacion to Pittsburgh for Glasnow and Tabata

 

Who says no first?

 

The Jays to the Pittsburgh deal... yuck

[glory]

The Jays to the Pittsburgh deal... yuck

 

Glasnow looks like an elite pitching prospect. The Pirates won't trade him and other top prospects with him. Definitely a risk to center a trade around a pitcher below AA ball, but I think he has a chance to be excellent if he pans out. Tabata is just a placeholder in the outfield as the team rebuilds.

[glory]

The 2nd one is horrifying

 

The Pirates are notoriously cheap so I don't see them trading guys like Hanson along with Glasnow for Edwin. I'd definitely ask for it though.

 

Maybe I'm overrating Glasnow but I think he will be a top 5-10 prospect in baseball by next season, if he isn't already.

 

But I'll agree that it's not a good trade after looking at Tabata's contract (I thought he was making way less than that).

[shortstop]

Jays are IMO close to a full out rebuild - just gotta keep losing & falling further & further behind - fan base is already disgusted at this point & say tgis team falls under 500 & 10+ games back if the WC, calls for cleaning house including AA will be loud.

 

build around Edwin & lawrie & Stro & hutch - maybe throw Gose in there since he'll be starting in CF anyways

 

Bullpen - loup, delabar,Cecil, McGowan

 

Everyone else is expendable

[Chappy]

If you are rebuilding then EE is at the top of the trade list. He is NOT someone you rebuild around at this point in his career.

[RealAccountant]

AA is not going to rebuild when he is going year to year. Not at this stage. We all know this core minus Cabrera and jansenn is what we are going forward with. No point in fantasizing otherwise