Yan Gomes signed 6yr 23mil wow

[theblujay]

I'm not picking on BTS here. Just pointing out that even good posters here mostly thought Gomes was organizational filler before he got traded and blossomed in Cleveland. I cut AA some slack here.

Lol.

 

And Caper is killing it in this thread

[GD]

Lol.

 

Pot, meet kettle

[ElNik2013]

Pot, meet kettle

 

 

 

This applies also to some of the best posters calling AA and idiot though.

[GD]

Is this that drooling idiot djbluray from the old board?

 

No, but he's not much better.

[GeorgiaPeach]

But the problem is... that isn't happening. That's just what a few of you guys say... and then just suck each others dick a bit and declare it true.

 

Sucking whose dick? Sorry dude, I don't ride with the clique that looks at everything as a final result based on stats. But I'll trash any fan who thinks Yan Gomes is great and we shoulda hung on to him. Or in hindsight made a huge mistake in letting Chris Carpenter go, when he pitched like absolute s*** for us for 6 years & had major arm problems. casual fans, or fans who don't really have a clue, need to observe and not speak.

 

No one thinks Ryan Goins... or Jim Negrych.... or Yan Gomes is the next Bautista.

 

Then people need to stop worrying about Yan Gomes.

 

Yeah.... it's ALMOST better that we don't have Bautista... because now people want Yan Gomes or Ryan Goins to get a look... yeah... that's it... what a f***in' retard.

 

It doesn't matter to me if we have Bautista or not. I don't need to watch Bautista, to enjoy watching baseball.

[GeorgiaPeach]

What? It's annoying when people ask if Yan Gomes is any good, you auto toss him and he turns out he is actually good.... and then that annoys you? Ok....

 

No. What's annoying are there's some dumb fans who got real noisy and ready to torch the Jays FO for getting rid of him after the fact.

 

A dumb fan shouldn't really have a speaking part on anything. They should be going to games, cheering and buying foam fingers, that's it.

[TheHurl]

I'm not picking on BTS here. Just pointing out that even good posters here mostly thought Gomes was organizational filler before he got traded and blossomed in Cleveland. I cut AA some slack here.

 

If they were an organization that believed in scouting via stats than I'd give them a free pass here. However, Gomes projected to be very similar to JPA in the majors, so why name JPA starter and send Gomes as a throw in? Honestly a team dumping Gomes makes complete sense in my mind. I watched just about every Vegas game that 2012 season...unfortunately I seldom got to see Gomes play catcher cause TdA was there. When TdA got hurt they still split Gomes with Phillips, so that Gomes could continue to work on his 3B skills.

 

The biggest question here is whether they are actually scouting their mistakes. Do they use their 16 million major league scouts to look at Gomes and see why he's striking out 20% less with the Indians than what he did with the Jays? Do they send their army of scouts to look at Wojc and see why he's K'ing 32% more batters than he did while with with the Jays (while walking the same)? Did they look at a reliever, that they let go in the Farrell deal, was one of the best relievers in the game and think "wow anyone who can average 95 MPH can be an effective reliever maybe we don't have to horde them?"

[GeorgiaPeach]

I'm not picking on BTS here. Just pointing out that even good posters here mostly thought Gomes was organizational filler before he got traded and blossomed in Cleveland. I cut AA some slack here.

 

Can anyone point to a post before Gomes 2013 season that screamed....we need to keep this guy!!!!!!

 

Before his 2013 season, IMO he was a useful Util player. That was my assessment. My assessment now & going forward compared to his peers.....around the tail end of the 2nd tier catchers. People need to look at the big picture of what Gomes is, not one year. People get wayyyy too hung up on what have you done for me lately.

[Caper]

If they were an organization that believed in scouting via stats than I'd give them a free pass here. However, Gomes projected to be very similar to JPA in the majors, so why name JPA starter and send Gomes as a throw in? Honestly a team dumping Gomes makes complete sense in my mind. I watched just about every Vegas game that 2012 season...unfortunately I seldom got to see Gomes play catcher cause TdA was there. When TdA got hurt they still split Gomes with Phillips, so that Gomes could continue to work on his 3B skills.

 

The biggest question here is whether they are actually scouting their mistakes. Do they use their 16 million major league scouts to look at Gomes and see why he's striking out 20% less with the Indians than what he did with the Jays? Do they send their army of scouts to look at Wojc and see why he's K'ing 32% more batters than he did while with with the Jays (while walking the same)? Did they look at a reliever, that they let go in the Farrell deal, was one of the best relievers in the game and think "wow anyone who can average 95 MPH can be an effective reliever maybe we don't have to horde them?"

 

That is a really good post and I would like to see AA address it.

[AdamGreenwood]

The most telling post in that Rogers/Gomes/Aviles trade was this from a Cleveland fan, the day after the trade:

 

"The Indians seem to love him defensively and believe he has upside with the bat"

 

If the Indian scouts could recognize that, why could the team that had him in their organization for four years not see it?

Why was he a throw in to a trade that was already weighted towards Cleveland?

 

When is AA going to end his experiment of collecting relievers with higher than a k per inning, and try to convert them into starters?

[GeorgiaPeach]

It's very obvious from your posts that you're a new fan. Yes, I liked the Izturis signing. You won't find find a single post from me saying it was a poor decision by the front office. The nature of the game is that things change quickly though. Sometimes a 29-year old bench player will adjust his swing and become a 40-homerun monster. More often a 32-year old bench player will see a small erosion in skill that prevents him from contributing anymore. When things like this happen, the front office has to react appropriately. In the case of Bautista it was an extension, and IMO in the case of Izturis it should be a release.

 

That doesn't mean their process was wrong when they signed Izturis though. I still think it was a worthwhile gamble on their part. Just one that didn't pay off. But that's the game - calculated risks. Good process will often yield a bad result, and bad process will often yield a good result. No organization is going to be right all the time, but the best organizations are going to be right more often than everybody else. They're going to do that by having good decision making process. If that process involves gifting 500 MLB plate appearances to every AAA player in the organization because Jose Bautista happened, that organization probably isn't going to win very many ball games. And that's the issue people have with Goins and Sierra (and Thames, and Arencibia). Nobody actually believes that great process is informing the decision to hand these guys full-time jobs. They just happen/happened to be in the organization and play a position at which the organization lacked MLB talent. They're not guaranteed to fail, they're just likely to fail.

 

Love the post.

 

There are some talented kids in the minors who I'd like to see come up and get a full year of uninterrupted playing time to work on playing FT and making adjustments. But teams are very impatient. And those kids are kids who are actually playing well in the minors or have a scouting report that has a bit of shine on it. There's nothing for me to get excited about a kid like Gomes was. The stats in the minors were that of a 2nd/3rd tier C, with some Util ability.

BA didn't have Gomes anywhere on the Jays MiLB depth chart in 2011 and Sickels mentioned Gomes once in his years in the minors and he was a fringy afterthought prospect.

[ElNik2013]

I've been looking for someone to write an article questioning AA since last year, but haven't seen one yet.

 

There are several things that he needs to address including the trade being discussed here and several other issues. Another one related to this trade is why did he think Aviles and Gomes was a fair price to pay for Rogers when he acquired Lincoln for Snider and Delabar for Thames?

 

Anyway, maybe one of this board's blog could write an article and offer it to one of the mainstream outlets although I'm not holding my breath.

[TheHurl]

My assessment now & going forward compared to his peers.....around the tail end of the 2nd tier catchers. People need to look at the big picture of what Gomes is, not one year. People get wayyyy too hung up on what have you done for me lately.

 

I think the point of this thread is that Cleveland sees him as a long term solution. Projection sites don't have him anywhere near the 131 wRC+ but still way above the average catcher. The lowest he's ranked is 11th by WAR. There appears to be something that casual fans, fantasy players and TBJ executives all missed (but may still be right as there isn't a large sample size to go by) Plus he could be replacement level for the next 4 years and still have a better career than JPA.

[Caper]

Love the post.

 

Of course you do. Look who wrote it. But you are right... It was a good post. It is just the sheer conviction he uses when writing off a player like Gomes... or Goins for that matter that is a bit irksome. You could all read his old posts about Gomes.... apparently he was pure garbage who would amount to nothing... I guess because a stat sheet somewhere told him so... then of course the 9 or 10 guys that polish his knob where all over that and called him waste as well.... and we know how it turned out.

[Caper]

The most telling post in that Rogers/Gomes/Aviles trade was this from a Cleveland fan, the day after the trade:

 

"The Indians seem to love him defensively and believe he has upside with the bat"

 

If the Indian scouts could recognize that, why could the team that had him in their organization for four years not see it?

Why was he a throw in to a trade that was already weighted towards Cleveland?

 

When is AA going to end his experiment of collecting relievers with higher than a k per inning, and try to convert them into starters?

 

 

 

Greenwood loved Gomes.

[GeorgiaPeach]

We didn't really get to see him catch...

 

So in order to assess a player they must all come up and play in the majors to be judged???

 

At the time we had Gomes, D'Arnaud was the COTF and Arencibia playing with the Jays. Multiple prospect publications & people weren't even giving Gomes any ink. Sorry, but a run of the mill bat in the minors with nothing lauding his defensive game.....isn't something to look forward to.

 

There's catchers in other org's minors right now who have similar bats or lesser bats than Gomes who I've read wayyy more about their defensive game than a catcher in our own org.

[mitchf]

I must admit, I thought he had an enormous whole in his swing. When his numbers fell, I didn't think it was possible they'd ever go back up.

 

Woops. However I'm not going to let 1 year completely change my opinion. 6 years is a long time.

[GeorgiaPeach]

Of course you do. Look who wrote it. But you are right... It was a good post. It is just the sheer conviction he uses when writing off a player like Gomes... or Goins for that matter that is a bit irksome. You could all read his old posts about Gomes.... apparently he was pure garbage who would amount to nothing... I guess because a stat sheet somewhere told him so... then of course the 9 or 10 guys that polish his knob where all over that and called him waste as well.... and we know how it turned out.

 

Care to show where I'm tight with the projections crowd? Because if you can't, you kinda need to shut the f*** up.

 

I do however side way closer with their opinions and thoughts, than lackey fans who strictly go to Jays games, only root for the Jays and draw a blank when discussing other teams.

 

At what point is it okay to write a player off? Because 26 year olds like Goins, just making the majors, don't do it for me. Sure I believe he's something somewhere, but it isn't much. IMO he should be our Util guy this year.

[glory]

A better defensive JPA is a pretty good description of Gomes, IMO. Well, the 2011-12 JPA, at least. I don't think he will ever hit for a high average in the Majors given his BB and K rates (unless it is luck based like last season), but he is a good defender and has some pop. He will have value. It's a shame the Jays threw him into the Rogers deal. After JPA tanked in 2013, Gomes would have been very valuable for the Jays right now.

[Caper]

It's very obvious from your posts that you're a new fan.

 

That's probably meant as an insult.... but there is truth in that.

 

 

Yes, I liked the Izturis signing. You won't find find a single post from me saying it was a poor decision by the front office. The nature of the game is that things change quickly though. Sometimes a 29-year old bench player will adjust his swing and become a 40-homerun monster. More often a 32-year old bench player will see a small erosion in skill that prevents him from contributing anymore. When things like this happen, the front office has to react appropriately. In the case of Bautista it was an extension, and IMO in the case of Izturis it should be a release.

 

Yip bang on.

 

That doesn't mean their process was wrong when they signed Izturis though. I still think it was a worthwhile gamble on their part. Just one that didn't pay off. But that's the game - calculated risks. Good process will often yield a bad result, and bad process will often yield a good result. No organization is going to be right all the time, but the best organizations are going to be right more often than everybody else. They're going to do that by having good decision making process. If that process involves gifting 500 MLB plate appearances to every AAA player in the organization because Jose Bautista happened, that organization probably isn't going to win very many ball games.

 

Yes to the 1st part..... the Jays aren't doing that... if that's what you mean in the second part. Jim Negrych played out of his skin for about 3 months last year and never got a call (that I wanted... and apparently he has since fallen off the earth).

 

And that's the issue people have with Goins and Sierra (and Thames, and Arencibia).

 

As horrible as it is watching JPA play... he deserved a long look.... and he's the Rangers starting catcher this year (due to injury)... so it wasn't a horrible decision to give him a year... maybe it was giving him two years.... Thames was a big mistake over Snider.... but they did turn Thames into something.... and Thames did have one sweet swing. I don't have an issue with Goins and Sierra.... yeah the bench is really thin.. and they could both turn out to be awful. BTW... I wonder what Goin's value would be if he had Sierra's bat.

[reedjohnsonfan]

http://www.forums.mlb.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=21&nav=messages&webtag=ml-bluejays&tid=86985

 

A lot of people were against this trade when it happened. You were highly in favour of it though! Has your opinion of Gomes changed?

 

"I was fairly impressed with Gomes' defense while he was here. He can play passable defense at several positions, including catcher, which will give you some nice flexibility. There's some power in his bat, but his swing mechanics are incredibly inconsistent and I think you'll find that he struggles to hit more than .220 or so."

-Grant77

 

That's probably what I would have said too. There's some holes in his swing. The deal was bad given Lawrie and Reyes' injury history and giving away Aviles, not necessarily for Gomes at the time. That being said they wanted to see what Rogers could do and to be fair his ceiling was and still is a lot higher than Aviles'.

[G-Snarls]

We didn't really get to see him catch...

 

Also his MiLB numbers, with my MiLB projections, projected a 97 wRC+ at 25. League average hitter with very good catching skills? You keep that.

 

Yeah we mostly used him at 3B

 

None of us got to see the potential at catcher

[Caper]

Care to show where I'm tight with the projections crowd? Because if you can't, you kinda need to shut the f*** up.

 

Wowzers.

[GeorgiaPeach]

Gomes MiLB career was not any different than JPA's. Yet JPA got 3 years to prove himself. Yan got 49 innings at C.

 

At the time, we still had D'Arnaud. So unless the plan was to move JPA and start Gomes, why would he have been given a regular run at catcher???

 

The Jays saw him catch 178 games in the minors. There had to have been some sort of opinion of his defensive game behind the plate.

[GeorgiaPeach]

Wowzers.

 

You're not one of those people put off by offensive language are you? I'd hate to hear you are.

[Caper]

At what point is it okay to write a player off? Because 26 year olds like Goins, just making the majors, don't do it for me. Sure I believe he's something somewhere, but it isn't much. IMO he should be our Util guy this year.

 

You are probably right. I just think his defense is soooo god dam good.... and I mean, really, really good. I also thought he was really squaring the ball up the last few games. I think there is an ok chance he can be an only slightly below average hitter.... and that is fine with me on an otherwise really offensively gifted team.

[Caper]

You're not one of those people put off by offensive language are you? I'd hate to hear you are.

 

 

 

No I don't really care..... it's just message board trash talk... fire away.

[GeorgiaPeach]

Jim Negrych played out of his skin for about 3 months last year and never got a call (that I wanted... and apparently he has since fallen off the earth).

 

IMO Negrych could've been brought up for a cup of coffee. There was no reason to expect much given his track record. So you give the guy a small chance seeing we needed IF help at the time and when he failed or no longer need him, you demote him.

[jaysblue]

Let me get this straight... Everyone should just blindly support the decisions without question just because... Why exactly?

 

Everyone should put their Mike Wilner cap on and everything the Blue Jays do will be alright!

[G-Snarls]

IMO Negrych could've been brought up for a cup of coffee. There was no reason to expect much given his track record. So you give the guy a small chance seeing we needed IF help at the time and when he failed or no longer need him, you demote him.

 

Yeah he deserved a shot. 2B was a disaster. There was nothing to lose. Sure he quite possibly would have failed but what did they have to lose? Boni and Izzy were blowing games left and right.