AA: "We're still trying to sign a starter"

[GeorgiaPeach]

2 words:

 

Doggy Style

 

But I'd still know what she looks like. I'd have already wasted my time dealing with some ugly broad if I'm at the point you've put up. If a girl is ugly I don't care if her body's a 10.....she's a zero to me.

[Fearthedoc]

The biggest mistake for me was the Ryan contract. For the most part he was incredibly efficient at spending the dollars he did have (I blame Godfrey for the Wells deal), but f*** that Ryan contract was stupid.

 

If only Snider had evolved into the player we all expected. Consensus top-10 prospect entering his age-26 season. How huge would it be to have a 4+ WAR cornerstone in his prime.

 

The infamous Burnett, Ryan, Overbay, Glaus, Molina year. There was so much buzz heading into that season.

[KingKat]

JPR fired most of those guys though, lol.

 

Well he was going to stick to slot anyways so it probably wouldn't have made a difference. The pitch that JPR made to ownership was that he could build a winner on the cheap an he came very close to accomplishing that. AA, on the other hand, has been much more liberal with bonus money and has benefited from a more committed ownership overall.

[TheHurl]

AA really did an incredible job early in his tenure. He turned a god awful farm into a top system in literally no time. Got rid of some terrible contracts. Turned players like Alex Gonzales into assets. Creatively acquired draft picks ( Olivo). He had a nice young core and a top farm and things were looking better then we could have ever hoped in the time frame he took over.

 

It just went down hill since the JA Happ trade. Down hill might be an understatement. Crash and burn since then.

 

Getting rid of some terrible contracts - amazing job even if it's possible (probable) that other GM's bailed him out on those. Check

You forgot extended several players to team friendly contracts. Great job, check!

As for building the top 5 farm. I loved the farm and what he did but people have to remember that he traded a top 5 player in baseball to get three of those top 100 prospects (three top 100's usually lands you in the top 10 anyway). There is a chance that he acquired Lawrie because he's Canadian. He gets stuck on athleticism over baseball ability and then the raw high school arms. Honestly the draft style gets to me but in a way it might be a new inefficiency. Prospect sites and fans love the raw undeveloped arms...it's still true now. But with about a 3% (don't have my data on me so will correct this if I'm wrong) of high school arms from the first 5 rounds making any impact it seems that if you are going to draft them you probably should trade them. You just shouldn't include major league rookies, top catching prospects, undervalued malcontents, and defensive CF's with some potential with the bat.

[Captain Adama]

Yeah Ricciardi was pretty good at player evaluation at the big league level.

 

He sold high on Hudson to get Glaus, and later sold high on Glaus to buy low on Rolen (who went on to have WAR's of 2.8, 4.1 and 4.5 through the remainder of his contract as opposed to Glaus who fell off the face of the earth after 2008). He got great value at the catching position seemingly every year (Myers, Zaun, Molina, and even Barajas wasn't terrible). He got Scutaro prior to his breakout. He believed in Rios even though his bat took a couple of years to catch up to his potential. He was able to identify Catalanotto's platoon splits and exploit them. And so on. Heck, one of the criticisms that I remember about his run early in his career was that he didn't value the Gord Ash guys, but if you look at the inherited players that he kept (Wells, Rios, McGowan, League, Johnson, Hudson until Hill was ready, etc) vs. the players he let go (Phelps, Lopez, Gross, Izturis, Lyon, Werth, etc), he was pretty spot on in terms of the players that would end up panning out (except Werth, though it took him a few years to reach his potential).

 

He wasn't perfect by any means, but I can't recall a MLB move that I can look back on and say "damn what the heck was he thinking?". He was almost cautious to a fault with his trades. Again, it all goes back to the drafting. Tulo over Romero would have helped him greatly, for starters. Striking out on Adams, Purcey, Snider (in hindsight), Cooper, and Jenkins looks pretty darn awful. He may not deserve that much blame for later round picks, but I'm assuming he'd at least have an idea of the first round guys. Outside of Hill, and a couple of Romero seasons, he was terrible in that regard.

 

That was more of Gibbons' doing. Aside from the Ryan deal, I think that mess-up with Thomas in '08 also f***ed him over.

 

I used to think he was a totally s*** GM, but knowing the things I do know compared from back then, it's tantalizing to think what he could have done with a decent payroll.

[glory]

Well he was going to stick to slot anyways so it probably wouldn't have made a difference. The pitch that JPR made to ownership was that he could build a winner on the cheap an he came very close to accomplishing that. AA, on the other hand, has been much more liberal with bonus money and has benefited from a more committed ownership overall.

 

Yep. I believe Godfrey was against going overslot in the draft, so Ricciardi did not have the freedom that AA does when it comes to drafting. Not that it would have made a huge difference, as I think JP was set in his ways back then and would have picked college guys anyway, but comparing drafting records is a bit misleading. If AA could not go overslot, then his drafts likely would not look as good either. No excuse for JP to draft as many duds as he did though.

 

In hindsight, I wonder how the Jays (and AA) would have looked if Bautista did not blow up in 2010. On paper, that team look poised to finish dead last in the East that year, but surprised to win 85, and Bautista got even better the following year and they won 81 despite trading Wells and Marcum. If they were a 70-75 win team like they were projected to be during those two years, would we have seen the accelerated short-term moves in 2012? Probably not. The team would look completely different.

[Captain Adama]

I don't think the Thomas deal was necessarily bad. It was just handled horribly in year two, by Frank and management.

 

The Thomas deal turned out great, he was their best offensive player in 07, I'm not certainly not arguing that, but '08 was no doubt just a disaster.

[glory]

Thomas was very good in 2007, and probably would have been decent in 2008 had they not released him. The issue with the contract was the vesting option for 2009. Had that not been in place, then they would have kept Thomas for all of 2008 and his signing probably would look a whole lot better in hindsight.

[ElNik2013]

In hindsight, I wonder how the Jays (and AA) would have looked if Bautista did not blow up in 2010. On paper, that team look poised to finish dead last in the East that year, but surprised to win 85, and Bautista got even better the following year and they won 81 despite trading Wells and Marcum. If they were a 70-75 win team like they were projected to be during those two years, would we have seen the accelerated short-term moves in 2012? Probably not. The team would look completely different.

 

 

 

 

I think you're probably right. I think the circumstances would've been there for a longer rebuild. Part of the rationale for last off season's moves was said to be to to speed up the rebuild to coincide with Bautista and EE's contracts.

 

I suspect ownership sets the mandate through the team president and unless they hire a president who makes the organization stick to a plan, we're likely to see these short-sighted changes in direction.

 

I think part of the frustration some of us feel is that if they had stuck with the plan, the organization would be in pretty darn good shape. However in order to do so, they had to be willing to take a step back in 2013 given Romero's implosion and the injuries to Hutchison and Drabek and I think that wasn't an option because it would've likely meant less interest, ticket sales and ratings.

[Abomination]

I used to think he was a totally s*** GM, but knowing the things I do know compared from back then, it's tantalizing to think what he could have done with a decent payroll.

 

If you look at 2008, the Jays payroll compared to the non-ridiculous teams is very similar to what it was last year. In 2008, when you exclude the Yankees we had a 97.8M payroll and the other top teams had 130M to 138M. Last year when you exclude the Yankees and Dodgers, we had 117.5M and the other top teams had 148 to 165M.

 

There has been a lot of inflation the last few years, so to ask what JPR could have done with a decent payroll - well he actually had one.

[jaysfan2014]

Don't forget the increased TV money from RSNs and ESPN/FOX/TBS. That's been responsible for salary inflation.

 

Plus, the Dodgers weren't a high payroll team like they are now back in 2008.

[Dick_Pole]

Too much Ricciardi-pining in retrospect here. Let's not forget he had inherited one of the best pitchers in baseball who was willing to stick around at below market value and Wells' actual tenure here came at pretty decent value. He had a big leg up even if at a somewhat limited payroll. His strengths in player evaluation at the MLB level is masked by his overwhelming weaknesses of being a f***ing douchebag. People are sick of AA talking...well recall back to Ricciardi's speeches which were about the same but also littered with excuses about salary parity and a little bit of sucking his own knob each time too. He should be thankful the Rays sucked until just about the end of his tenure. Don't know what he would have said if they were competitive throughout. Sure he had Godfrey influencing some of his bad decisions but AA has Beeston to deal with so I would assumes the two effects cancel each other out.

[John_Havok]

AA: "We're still trying to sign a starter"

 

Three words....f***ing try harder!

[Frenchsoup]

if i am Ubaldo or Ervin and i don't like these contracts there offering me i would hold out until that compensation comes off. Not sure when that is? July? But anyways there will be a team desperate for pitching then and they should be able to get a better deal then.

[saskjayfan]

The Thomas deal turned out great, he was their best offensive player in 07, I'm not certainly not arguing that, but '08 was no doubt just a disaster.

 

The Thomas deal produced some of the best commercials in blue jay history in 07. Big frank knocking those kids out with those pillow cases was pure gold....worth every penny.

[Abomination]

The Thomas deal produced some of the best commercials in blue jay history in 07. Big frank knocking those kids out with those pillow cases was pure gold....worth every penny.

 

That one, the bees nest one, and the canoe one I think are my 3 favorite.

[Abomination]

Weird, not letting me delete the other after double post.

[Captain Adama]

The Thomas deal produced some of the best commercials in blue jay history in 07. Big frank knocking those kids out with those pillow cases was pure gold....worth every penny.

 

The lost art of hitting your kids.

[Anemic0ffense]

Wasn't the Big Hurt our best hitter the one full season he was here? Man our hitting that year was 'anemic'.

[awsomest]

Wasn't the Big Hurt our best hitter the one full season he was here? Man our hitting that year was 'anemic'.

Rk Pos Age G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB

C Gregg Zaun# 36 110 391 331 43 80 24 1 10 52 0 0 51 55 .242 .341 .411 .752 98 136 9 2 1 6 8

2 1B Lyle Overbay* 30 122 476 425 49 102 30 2 10 44 2 0 47 78 .240 .315 .391 .706 85 166 12 1 0 3 4

3 2B Aaron Hill 25 160 657 608 87 177 47 2 17 78 4 3 41 102 .291 .333 .459 .792 107 279 21 0 3 5 1

4 SS John McDonald 32 123 353 327 32 82 20 2 1 31 7 2 11 48 .251 .279 .333 .612 61 109 4 2 12 1 0

5 3B Troy Glaus 30 115 456 385 60 101 19 1 20 62 0 1 61 102 .262 .366 .473 .839 120 182 7 5 0 5 2

6 LF Adam Lind* 23 89 311 290 34 69 14 0 11 46 1 2 16 65 .238 .278 .400 .678 77 116 7 1 2 2 0

7 CF Vernon Wells 28 149 642 584 85 143 36 4 16 80 10 4 49 89 .245 .304 .402 .706 85 235 9 3 0 6 4

8 RF Alex Rios 26 161 711 643 114 191 43 7 24 85 17 4 55 103 .297 .354 .498 .852 122 320 9 6 0 7 3

9 DH Frank Thomas 39 155 624 531 63 147 30 0 26 95 0 0 81 94 .277 .377 .480 .857 125 255 14 7 0 5 3

 

Ironically our best hitters was matt stairs a bench piece

0 UT Matt Stairs* 39 125 405 357 58 103 28 1 21 64 2 1 44 66 .289 .368 .549 .917 138 196 7 2 0 2 5

 

we won 83 games so Heaven forbid the one year we have good pitching we would have a decent offense to go with it.

[jays4life19]

Heh.

 

Adam Lind in Left Field. Good times. (not)

[GD]

Wasn't the Big Hurt our best hitter the one full season he was here? Man our hitting that year was 'anemic'.

 

http://i.imgur.com/3E47U7Y.jpg

 

Misc. Observations:

 

-Holy f*** Matt Stairs was good

-Remember what it was like having a competent second baseman?

-Gregg Zaun. That is all.

-Lyle Overbay; Lyle UnderReplacement

-I didn't realize Wells' 2007 was 84 wRC+ bad. Jeez.

-Russ Adams. Haaaaaa.

-Curtis Thigpen. Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

-I miss Reed Johnson damnit.

-SAL FASANO. The stache.

 

E: The pitchers are just as wonderfully, nostalgically awesome.

[awsomest]

Its hilarious but Jesse litch is one of a very few to post multiple sub 4.00 era's in rogers center history.

[GD]

So many bosses on that team: Stairs, Big Hurt, Zaun, Glaus, Hill, Halladay, Marcum, Burnett, McGowan etc...

 

http://i.imgur.com/I17MqSC.jpg

 

-Doc.

-D-Maaaaaac [internal screaming]

-Remember that one time Jeremy Accardo was really good and had 30 saves? Yeah, neither did I.

-Bernice Tallet.

-Did Josh Towers actually compile 107.0 IP for that team? My only memory of him is (i'm pretty sure) him absolutely destroying Randy Ruiz's jaw, fulfilling the ECJF curse.

-I wonder who'll provide more value next year, Brandon League or Brandon Morrow?

-Tomo Okha: walking more guys than you strike out is good, right?

-B.J. Ryan; 4.1 IP of glory.

-I bet Zaun wears Gustavo Chacin's cologne/perfume.

[ExposFan]

-I miss Reed Johnson damnit.

 

This.

[dineke]

Wow the hot girls thread got completely derailed.

[GD]

I have no recollection at all of Victor Zambrano pitching in this org.

 

My only recollection of Victor Zambrano /existing/ is reading about him in The Extra 2%.

[GD]

-0.6WAR in 10 innings pitched

 

That's...impressive

 

You won't think so when Goins puts up -69 fWAR in 17 PA.

 

Zambrano for Kazmir is one of the great fleecings in recent memory.

 

But the Rays only won cause they drafted high.

[Dick_Pole]

http://i.imgur.com/3E47U7Y.jpg

 

 

http://i.imgur.com/I17MqSC.jpg

 

 

Ah yes, going back to the days when the Rogers Centre was an extreme pitchers park

[Dick_Pole]

http://i.imgur.com/I17MqSC.jpg

 

-Doc.

-D-Maaaaaac [internal screaming]

-Remember that one time Jeremy Accardo was really good and had 30 saves? Yeah, neither did I.

-Bernice Tallet.

-Did Josh Towers actually compile 107.0 IP for that team? My only memory of him is (i'm pretty sure) him absolutely destroying Randy Ruiz's jaw, fulfilling the ECJF curse.

-I wonder who'll provide more value next year, Brandon League or Brandon Morrow?

-Tomo Okha: walking more guys than you strike out is good, right?

-B.J. Ryan; 4.1 IP of glory.

-I bet Zaun wears Gustavo Chacin's cologne/perfume.

 

Another observation of this pitching staff - despite having 4 solid SP options that pitched 150+ IP and Litsch coming out of nowhere, how many innings were wasted on junk pitchers - puts it into perspective over people who complain about Ortiz, Laffey, Redmond et al last year. This has been an organization-wide phenomenon since a 70 yo career mediocre pitcher called Danny Darwin was given a starting spot for half the year in 1995.