Bonifacio DFA = LOL

[GeorgiaPeach]

Neither do I. I want an actual average 2B (Drew), but I believe Boni is better than Goins at this point with more upside.

 

The difference in what both (Boni & Goins) would provide is beyond negligible.

[Frag]

Surprised nobody picked up on the money part of this transaction:

 

The Royals have designated infielder Emilio Bonifacio for assignment, according to a team release. The move clears space on the Royals' roster for Bruce Chen.

[gruber92]

I'd prefer him to Goins.

 

You got serious f***ing problems.

[gruber92]

Don't see how it's a problem. Obviously I'd rather neither, but if I had to choose, Boni has more upside and potential for bigger seasons.

 

Over the course of a full season (or several) , the shut down defense Goins brings trumps what Boni brings every time. You can't expect to have offensive impact at every position combined with solid defense,it would be nice, but not realistic. Don't worry,Seitzer is lubing Goins' anal to be a .250 / .310 type.

[Jimcanuck]

Boni is better than what he showed with us, but regardless, the ship has sailed....

[TheHurl]

I remember this discussion last year before the season. It was pretty much one against all on the other side.

[gruber92]

His ceiling is 1.5 WAR at most. Boni is higher.

 

The fact that its a guarantee that Goins will bring stellar defense makes him pretty much a 1.5 WAR. Boni would have to have a great offensive season to get him to a 1.5 WAR. So yes that Boni has a higher ceiling but he's a higher risk, as offense is never a guarantee like defense is. This teams desperately needs stability, so i'd rather take the guarantee.

[Muck Bartinez]

The fact that its a guarantee that Goins will bring stellar defense makes him pretty much a 1.5 WAR. Boni would have to have a great offensive season to get him to a 1.5 WAR. So yes that Boni has a higher ceiling but he's a higher risk, as offense is never a guarantee like defense is. This teams desperately needs stability, so i'd rather take the guarantee.

 

I don't think you know what "pretty much a 1.5 WAR season" means.

[GD]

The fact that its a guarantee that Goins will bring stellar defense makes him pretty much a 1.5 WAR. Boni would have to have a great offensive season to get him to a 1.5 WAR.

 

LMAO, no.

 

Bonifacio, playing to his career means in baserunning and fielding, at second base, requires a .287 wOBA to post 1.5 WAR in 600 PA. That's 91 non-context adjusted wRC+, or 9% worse than league average. This would require a 13.75% increase in Bonifacio's offense, and a 12.4% increase on Bonifacio's steamer projection. He's also posted a full season of 109 wRC+ ball, for whatever that's worth.

 

Averaging and extrapolating Goins' fielding projections out to a full season, and doing the same for his BsR, along with 2nd base positional adjustment and replacement runs over 600 PA, we get about 3.1 win value added without his offense. To get to 1.5 wins from there, he would need to "provide" his team -15.95 runs from his offense or so. To be worth -15.95 wRAA, a .280 wOBA, or an 89 non-context adjusted wRC+ is needed. Goins posted a 62 wRC+ last year. That's a 43.5% increase in offensive talent from last year, just to be worth 1.5 wins. He's projected for a collective 65 wRC+. He's 24% short. Anything less than 89, and his value just goes down, and Bonifacio continues to be the better option. If he posted his 2013 .267 wOBA, he would be worth, in all, a grand total of .7 wins above replacement.

 

Conclusion: Bonifacio is the better option, Goins isn't a starting level 2B, and you don't understand wins above replacement.

excuse any math errors

there was intense rounding used in the above mathematics

[GD]

I smell a #roast....

 

you wrecked it

[GeorgiaPeach]

I never thought I would see someone get so angry over "I would take Bonifacio over Ryan Goins" comment...

 

I'm tired of hearing about projections systems, or made up projection systems and them being the final answer to everything. They're all tools....they're not the answer.

 

Every system spits out different results.....they're not perfect, just guidelines and projections. There's certain players who go against particular stats, but then there's other stats to explain why there's FIP & XFIP busters.......why particular players have crazy high or low BABIP.

 

It was hilarious when Roberto Alomar's defensive numbers on FG were found to be s*** and posters denounced the numbers because they knew Alomar was great. But then the same posters will still use the same numbers to define other players defensive abilities. Either the numbers are good, or they aren't, picking and choosing numbers for particular players or using a different projection system to suit arguments, its all lame.

[GeorgiaPeach]

I don't think you know what "pretty much a 1.5 WAR season" means.

 

You have both players....both offensively inept. Then you have their defence and:

 

I'll take the player I watched make routine and spectacular plays and felt confident in his defence over the player I watched who made me cringe making routine plays and lucked his way into a couple of spectacular plays.

[John_Havok]

You have both players....both offensively inept. Then you have their defence and:

 

I'll take the player I watched make routine and spectacular plays and felt confident in his defence over the player I watched who made me cringe making routine plays and lucked his way into a couple of spectacular plays.

 

I think when this is what we have to deal with, the FO f***ed up and nobody should be happy about the situation, because it comes down to which pile of s*** stinks slightly less.

[G-Snarls]

10 days to trade him.

 

I will concede that as a 24th man on an NL team he might have some utility. But I don't imagine a team wants to give up something in trade AND pay him 3.5M.

[TBJ12]

I'd rather see Kawasaki at 2nd over either one. He gets on base, can lay down a bunt, and plays solid d.

 

It doesn't hurt that he provides the most entertaining interviews in baseball as well.

[Boxcar]

I'm tired of hearing about projections systems, or made up projection systems and them being the final answer to everything. They're all tools....they're not the answer.

 

Every system spits out different results.....they're not perfect, just guidelines and projections. There's certain players who go against particular stats, but then there's other stats to explain why there's FIP & XFIP busters.......why particular players have crazy high or low BABIP.

 

It was hilarious when Roberto Alomar's defensive numbers on FG were found to be s*** and posters denounced the numbers because they knew Alomar was great. But then the same posters will still use the same numbers to define other players defensive abilities. Either the numbers are good, or they aren't, picking and choosing numbers for particular players or using a different projection system to suit arguments, its all lame.

 

The tool used to calculate Alomar's defense is Total Zone, and it is garbage but the only thing available during his time and prior. Any defensive measurements from that time period have to be taken with a grain of salt and players today are evaluated much more accurately. I feel like you've been told all this already.

 

There's also the possibility that Alomar suffers from Jeter syndrome and just isn't quite as good as we thought, because of some flashy plays he made in the field.

[TBJ12]

There is really no mistaking just how good Alomar was defensively, his range was absolutely incredible. The metrics were likely screwed from him not making plays on balls he should have never got to in the first place. It's not like it was only Jays fans who raved about his d, he was widely considered the best second baseman in the game for years.

[GeorgiaPeach]

I think when this is what we have to deal with, the FO f***ed up and nobody should be happy about the situation, because it comes down to which pile of s*** stinks slightly less.

 

Goins.

 

Another aspect that rubs me the wrong way is. Bonifacio being a cocky.....crappy player. Him and Rajai are pretty much cut from the same cloth.

 

I pretty much suck at baseball, but when my speed and athleticism allows me to do something flashy.....everyone at the park is gonna know about it.

[ElNik2013]

Alomar sucks!

[GeorgiaPeach]

I feel like you've been told all this already.

 

You're thinking of jaybooster

[GeorgiaPeach]

Also the possibility that he as s*** at positioning himself on the field.

 

My apologies for quoting the other board:

 

To:Frag

2/2/13

88661.66

Reply to 88661.57

 

 

 

 

georgia_peach

georgia_peach

Posts:6901

 

The problem with Alomar is, he's like Jim Edmonds and the frequency of their involvement in highlight-reel plays. Many remember those two as defensive gods. But really, if someone is making highlight-reel plays all the time, is it something to be proud of? To me all those plays look great vsually, but with all the defensive scouting reports available and the defensive player's memory of what particular hitters tendencies are to me says that Edmonds and Alomar weren't in a good position to begin with.

 

Who knows, maybe Alomar was a showboat, played out of position on purpose creating those "special" plays we all remember.

 

Heck look at Cal Ripken's FG FLD numbers.....off the charts. Ripken rarely made flashy plays, but was uncannily in the right place on most plays. I remember hearing this multiple times on TV broadcasts about Ripken working tirelessly in practice on positioning.

[Boxcar]

You're thinking of jaybooster

 

Oh, sorry. I just remember posting that somewhere before, forgot about him.

[SAAviour]

Alomar was flashy, spectacular and had plenty of range. He was also smooth like butter and had brilliant hands which I believe if I recall correctly were from his dad forcing him to learn to field grounders with a piece of flat cardboard instead of a glove. It's been 20 years and I've seen nothing close defensively at 2b since. His defence rating was not built on spectacular plays, he did everything with perfection. Even his relays home from the outfield were brilliant.

[Muck Bartinez]

You have both players....both offensively inept. Then you have their defence and:

 

I'll take the player I watched make routine and spectacular plays and felt confident in his defence over the player I watched who made me cringe making routine plays and lucked his way into a couple of spectacular plays.

 

OK... Still doesn't make either one a lock for 1.5 WAR, which is what the poster was claiming for Goins.

Edited February 2, 2014 by Muck Bartinez

[SAAviour]

You didn't mention his positioning.

 

The guy lived baseball everyday of his life since the age of 5 or so, I understand what you are saying completely but he was brilliant and I think personally it's a safe bet to say he knew where to position himself.

 

Not that anyone would ever do this, but would it be possible to watch film of every game he played and get an accurate measurement of his defence?

 

Anyway, another thing I'm confident about....if we could add just Alomar in his prime to this team we become instant playoff contenders. I'm sure the #'s would back this up with projections but you would know best.

[Boxcar]

The guy lived baseball everyday of his life since the age of 5 or so, I understand what you are saying completely but he was brilliant and I think personally it's a safe bet to say he knew where to position himself.

 

Not that anyone would ever do this, but would it be possible to watch film of every game he played and get an accurate measurement of his defence?

 

Anyway, another thing I'm confident about....if we could add just Alomar in his prime to this team we become instant playoff contenders. I'm sure the #'s would back this up with projections but you would know best.

 

He'd instantly be the best player on the team by quite a bit, so he'd definitely take us into 90+ win territory.

[SAAviour]

Oh man, you guys missed out on the best 2nd basemen to ever play the position, Joe Morgan lovers can suck a cock. He was phenomenal.

 

Theses young guys can teach us a lot of stuff about WAR etc....but they never saw the greatest jay of all time play likes us older gentleman did, poor little brats missed out

[ElNik2013]

Here's what I found on YT:

 

 

 

 

Yes, a lot of those plays were highlight-reel type, but he had got to balls up the middle and in the 1b/2B hole like no one I ever saw. Anyway, to each his own.

[Jimcanuck]

at the time the debate over best defensive shortstop was between Vizquel and Alomar..... most will say Vizquel was better, but not by much.... and Vizquel is considered one of the best defensive 2B ever

 

at the plate and on the basepaths, it was no contest - Alomar was the best offensive 2B in the game for many years

 

a rare 5 tool 2B

[TBJ12]

at the time the debate over best defensive shortstop was between Vizquel and Alomar..... most will say Vizquel was better, but not by much.... and Vizquel is considered one of the best defensive 2B ever

 

I wasn't aware Alomar was a SS.