[AL East Trade]: O's acquire K-Rod

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

Who said I have a crystal ball? What are you saying? Sorry you disagree but I believe that we should be trading away our bullpen arms if we can get decent returns for them. We have, Luis Perez, Wagner, Carreno, Stilson, Santos that can replace them

 

You seem to have a quest to turn the Jays into a AAA level team. Wagner and Perez have ZERO history as effective pitchers beyond limited time this year. Santos is on the DL almost full time and has only half a season of reliable closing. Middle guys can be traded, but every team needs an effective closer and one "go to" set up guy on their pitching staff ( minimum ). Trading effective major league pitchers for minor league prospects might make you better in 2017, but by then Bautista/Encarnancian/Reyes/Dickey are gone. You need to understand how time windows work in baseball and where the Jays are at this point.

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

Dem savez!

 

Are you just a troll buddy ? Because you are just sounding ignorant now.

[Angrioter]

White Sox, Rangers Discussing Alex Rios

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

Show me one example from the past where a team did what you recommend successfully. Any season any team. Has to be a good bullpen

and the best three guys got traded away.

[Orgfiller]

People should get it out of their head - the Jays are not getting Castellanos/Wong/Polanco etc for relievers. I'm laughing my head off on how we should package Janssen and Oliver with Bonafacio for Castellanos.

 

This, team GM's aren't idiots, no one trades their top prospects for relievers, unless those relievers are Aroldis Chapman or maybe Kimbrel.

[EdelweissBouquet]

From what I've heard Detroit's system is pretty terrible, so I don't think that's the best team to get a decent prospect out of, and they are definitely not trading their top prospect for a bunch of relievers.

 

Nick castellanos, not too shabby.

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

Anybody who thinks it's worthwhile to trade Janssen for a fringe prospect like Delmonico, please jump in front of a train.

 

Some of these posters are somewhat delusional. They'd only miss Janssen when the next guy starts blowing 25% of his saves. Or worse in the case of Gregg and Santos since he became a Jay. Its obvious that if you can get something useful for Delebar and/or their huge overcollection of middle relievers they should make a move. I'd like to think Delebar being extremely effective right now would be good trade bait.

[Orgfiller]

Nick castellanos, not too shabby.

 

Yeah, but I don't see Detroit trading their one good prospect for a bunch of relievers, has he been sucking this year? This only maybe/sometimes works when players are at their lowest perceived value (Ex. Colby Rasmus whose situation was worse since the manager drove him away from the team).

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

We traded Frasor and Stewart into Edwin Jackson

 

And then we traded Jackson, Dotel, Rzep, and Patterson into Rasmus

 

You need to make up your mind if you are talking about Loup/Oliver or Janssen/Delebar. The way you talk about things is like saying we need to trade Bautista

and Encarnacian ( yes, I see that silly concept on these forums too ) but what you might have meant was trade Davis and De Rosa.

[JaysFanToTheEnd]

Dodgers are looking for bullpen help.

 

Janssen for Corey Seager

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

So now you think we should trade Delabar? Make up your damn mind

 

Excuse me, I have always recommended moving Delebar. What you said was move ALL of them. Which is stupid. Why don't you get this ?

If you have two strong 1B players you don't start on a premise you want to trade both of them for prospects. Its the same for back end relievers.

 

Surely you understand the difference between trading all of Janssen/Delebar/Cecil rather then trading one of them.

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

This doesn't make any sense. I am not saying we need to trade Bautista and Encarnacion. I have never once said that.

 

There is a huge difference, between trading players like Bautista and Encarnacion , and trading relievers that are easily replaceable.

 

Buddy, listen very carefully. Closers are NOT easily replaceable. Closers and premium setup guys are not "middle relievers". You need to stop

throwing around names of every relief pitcher on the team like they are all the same. You also need to recognize that the entire premise of this

discussion was YOUR idea to trade away ALL of the best relievers on the Jays team and replace them with Santos and minor league prospects.

 

This is why I said you were acting like a troll. Now its like you are on Ritalin or something. Stick to the topic and remember you set the premise.

[SAAviour]

Is castelanos (sp) a 3rd base prospect? Maybe he is the reason lawrie is trying out 2nd. Perhaps a deal involving him for relievers is on the table?

[Chappy]

Buddy, listen very carefully. Closers are NOT easily replaceable. Closers and premium setup guys are not "middle relievers". You need to stop

throwing around names of every relief pitcher on the team like they are all the same. You also need to recognize that the entire premise of this

discussion was YOUR idea to trade away ALL of the best relievers on the Jays team and replace them with Santos and minor league prospects.

 

This is why I said you were acting like a troll. Now its like you are on Ritalin or something. Stick to the topic and remember you set the premise.

 

Relievers don't have nearly the impact regular players or SP's do. We have needs in both areas right now and by moving some relievers who have peak value, it will allow AA to free up $$ and acquire assets that can be flipped to help more important areas of need.

 

There is no point in having a shut down pen when they are not getting the opportunity to shut anything down. Pen = wasted assets at the moment.

[Orgfiller]

Buddy, listen very carefully. Closers are NOT easily replaceable. Closers and premium setup guys are not "middle relievers". You need to stop

throwing around names of every relief pitcher on the team like they are all the same. You also need to recognize that the entire premise of this

discussion was YOUR idea to trade away ALL of the best relievers on the Jays team and replace them with Santos and minor league prospects.

 

This is why I said you were acting like a troll. Now its like you are on Ritalin or something. Stick to the topic and remember you set the premise.

 

You realize that Janssen was a failed starter right, Cecil too. Just about anyone can replace those guys, maybe Romero ends up completely flaming out as a starter and becomes a good reliever, it really IS that easy to get a decent reliever, and as already pointed out, they are very unpredictable, look at Rodney, Jim Johnson this year.

[Orgfiller]

Is castelanos (sp) a 3rd base prospect? Maybe he is the reason lawrie is trying out 2nd. Perhaps a deal involving him for relievers is on the table?

 

3B/Corner OF, but I think Detroit moved him there because of Cabrera, which brings his value down a little. But again, a bunch of relievers isn't netting the team's best prospect, not even close.

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

You've only made 13 posts so how was I supposed to know you always wanted to trade Delabar? Why do you want to trade Delabar and not Cecil/Janssen/Oliver?

 

Ok, I'll answer this. The Jays remain on "contendor mode" for 2014. Janssen is both effective and cheap for 2014, and if his injuries become an issue there is no long term risk. The Jays have too many middle relievers. However, Delebar is on the best season of his life and is expendable. I believe he'd be attractive right now.

 

Oliver isn't even worth discussing he is of limited value to anyone, they can move him its not material.

 

Since we don't know what anybody will offer for any of these guys, I can only offer a starting point and if it changes to Janssen instead so be it. I just cannot ever fathom moving both of them as being smart, and if not you there are others on here clearly recommending trading all of them.

[Chappy]

We have Stilson, Carreno who are going to force their way into this pen at some point as well as Santos returning in the next week or two. Plus we have Perez who could be in the mix next season two as he works his way back from injury. Also, lets not forget about Lincoln in AAA who is a capable long man and the recently demoted Wagner who already earned a spot in this pen. That is 6 potentially solid options that will be available to start the 2014 season in addition to the 6 in our current pen who will be returning next season (minus Oliver).

 

We have 12 f***ing legitimate RP options to start the 2014 season as of now and I am probably missing an arm or two. Why do people want to hoard these relievers is beyond logic.

[Chappy]

Stilson, Carreno, Santos, Wagner and Luis Perez could very easily replace any reliever that we trade

 

Don't forget Lincoln who is a capable long man option as well.

[fatcowxlive]

Anybody who thinks it's worthwhile to trade Janssen for a fringe prospect like Delmonico, please jump in front of a train.

 

You're saying K-Rod is worth as much as Janssen? lol

 

Wait - so you support the face that we should stack up on relief pitching for this meaningless year, and discard the fact we can re-stock the farm? Good Idea

[fatcowxlive]

Don't forget Lincoln who is a capable long man option as well.

 

I forgot Lincoln on my old list!

 

We'll be fine with relief pitching. If AA doesn't trade anyone, it will be absurd.

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

You realize that Janssen was a failed starter right, Cecil too. Just about anyone can replace those guys, maybe Romero ends up completely flaming out as a starter and becomes a good reliever, it really IS that easy to get a decent reliever, and as already pointed out, they are very unpredictable, look at Rodney, Jim Johnson this year.

 

Dennis Eckersley was also a failed starter yes. So was a guy in Atlanta.

 

Again, the idea that a good reliever is easy to find is a compete myth. I'm not sure why such myths have incredible staying power on these message boards.

[Orgfiller]

We have Stilson, Carreno who are going to force their way into this pen at some point as well as Santos returning in the next week or two. Plus we have Perez who could be in the mix next season two as he works his way back from injury. Also, lets not forget about Lincoln in AAA who is a capable long man and the recently demoted Wagner who already earned a spot in this pen. That is 6 potentially solid options that will be available to start the 2014 season in addition to the 6 in our current pen who will be returning next season (minus Oliver).

 

We have 12 f***ing legitimate RP options to start the 2014 season as of now and I am probably missing an arm or two. Why do people want to hoard these relievers is beyond logic.

 

I think people have to find a middle ground here, obviously it makes no sense to keep relievers at their highest value when some team could potentially give us a solid player in return for them, just about anyone in the org can replace them. Then there's this idea that people get that relievers are going to get us a team's best prospect, nothing is set in stone, I could still be wrong, but teams value their top prospects just as much as anyone and for obvious reasons. You trade these relievers for any kind of valuable piece that you might get back, seeing as they are easily replaceable, but people should not be disappointed because the return player isn't a 5 WAR 3B under team control, or some team's best prospect, that just isn't happening.

[Orgfiller]

Dennis Eckersley was also a failed starter yes. So was a guy in Atlanta.

 

Again, the idea that a good reliever is easy to find is a compete myth. I'm not sure why such myths have incredible staying power on these message boards.

 

You completely missed my point, I'm saying that these guys essentially busted out as starters, so they found comfort in short outing situations, they didn't come up as highly regarded relievers from the start. Heck, if Aaron Sanchez' control doesn't ever recover he might turn into the next Kimbrel, it really isn't hard to understand, relievers come out of nowhere.

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

Don't forget Lincoln who is a capable long man option as well.

 

This discussion goes nowhere if people can't distinguish between a relief ace and a middle reliever. The discussion started with the idea of

trading away every relief ace and relief ace prospect on the team except Santos. Who are the people who want to hoard middle relievers, beyond

AA and Gibbons ?

 

If people think getting a relief ace is easy, well here's a quick observation. The Phillies are going nowhere this season and their ace is on a huge

contract. They don't want to move him. That and AGAIN my observation about how the Jays had an absolutely horrible "bullpen by committee"

very recently.

 

And addressing your other point, the Jays don't need to blow up their bullpen in entirety to fill their holes. They are only 2 or 3 good roster moves

from having a World Series caliber team. Your point would have much more validity if they were a really bad team on a 5 year plan to improve.

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

You completely missed my point, I'm saying that these guys essentially busted out as starters, so they found comfort in short outing situations, they didn't come up as highly regarded relievers from the start. Heck, if Aaron Sanchez' control doesn't ever recover he might turn into the next Kimbrel, it really isn't hard to understand, relievers come out of nowhere.

 

The major leagues have had a shortage of reliable closers pretty much every year for 30 years. So no matter how much you think the supply is bountiful

on guys who MAY fill that role, in actuality the guys who DO fill that role is something else.

 

I'm not sure why I'm discussing this because past history supports my argument easily and people are being blinded by short term overanalysis of the Jays.

[Chappy]

This discussion goes nowhere if people can't distinguish between a relief ace and a middle reliever. The discussion started with the idea of

trading away every relief ace and relief ace prospect on the team except Santos. Who are the people who want to hoard middle relievers, beyond

AA and Gibbons ?

 

If people think getting a relief ace is easy, well here's a quick observation. The Phillies are going nowhere this season and their ace is on a huge

contract. They don't want to move him. That and AGAIN my observation about how the Jays had an absolutely horrible "bullpen by committee"

very recently.

 

And addressing your other point, the Jays don't need to blow up their bullpen in entirety to fill their holes. They are only 2 or 3 good roster moves

from having a World Series caliber team. Your point would have much more validity if they were a really bad team on a 5 year plan to improve.

 

Four options:

 

1) Trade Janssen while his value is likely at its highest. Delabar could easily step in and replace him at a fraction of the cost. All the while his value sky rockets after he gets a

few saves under his belt seeing as he is cheap and under team control for several years.

 

2) Or we could trade Delabar who provides much more value/$$ compared to Janssen. Then have a closer in Janssen on our hands that we will either need to extend after the

2014 season for probably greater than $8M per season or have to trade him at the deadline while his value is lower than it is now considering the contract situation. Add to

the fact that if the Jays are contending next season, AA will be forced to keep Janssen and then we possibly lose him after the season for nothing or have to sign him to a

costly contract that could have been avoided.

 

3) Or we could trade both Janssen and Delabar while their values are both quite high, and let Santos close out games for us with a strong supporting cast behind him. AA can

then go into the winter and look to strengthen the pen further if he wishes when the value of relievers fall quite a bit.

 

4) Trade no one and have the equivalent of 2 pens show up to spring training.

 

This isn't a difficult decision, but strangely it appears many are having a hard time with it.

[Howard Roark]

Here's what will happen. Instead of reading the writing on the wall, we're going to roll with this group for the next two years, finish 5th in the East both of those years, and only THEN will they tear this thing down. For HIGHLY denuded returns, mind you, as by then most if not all of our valued assets will be gone/expiring/declining.

 

For marketing purposes, the rebuild will be delayed by two years. Enjoy the next two seasons of being a .500 ballclub with a mediocre farm.

[John_Havok]

Seriously, this is a ridiculous idea. Just because you have a surplus doesn't mean you clean house. Although, it is similar to what they did with catchers. How did that turn out ? Arencebia in, Napoli/D'Arnaud/Buck/Mathis/Gomes/... out. If they had kept one of the others, they'd have options beyond Arencebia every game and hope he gets better.

 

I agree. Don't need to clean house, but with such a surplus that 1-2 arms wouldn't be missed and easily replaced, there's moves that can and should be made.

[SAAviour]

If we trade Jansen and delabar I'd give McGowan a shot at closing.

And I would trade both of them in this market.