NBA Thread

[dineke]

TBF there was zero chance Leonard was ever going to play for the Spurs again.

 

You’re also underating DeRozan - he’s not the greatest player in the league and has obvious flaws, but come on he was All NBA second team last year.

 

I also think you’re right when you say Pop has no interest in rebuilding in his last few years, so they weren’t interested in whatever offers they received that were based on picks/younger players.

 

Derozan is one of the most overrated players in the league. His advanced metrics are horrible and the raptors have been better with him off the court consistently for his entire career.

 

Maybe the spurs can use their voodoo magic to teach him to shoot a 3 and stop being horrible on defense but for now he's a negative on the court making 30 million a year.

[Terminator]

You're aware of the Kawhi situation right? The Spurs basically had zero leverage because Leonard's group and manager/uncle are super toxic and completely shattered relations between the two camps. The Lakers on the other hand had all the leverage in the world since he seems deadset on going to them a year from now, so giving up promising young pieces when they could have both.

 

Of course I'm aware, that's why I didn't say the Lakers should give up Ingram; I'm talking about the Kuzma's and the Hart's of the team to go along with a s***** pick. You are aware that Lebron is old right? Having him team up with a superstar for one of his final couple of seasons in his prime would have been worth it. My guess is the Spurs didn't want to trade him to the Lakers for stupid reasons and also asked for a much bigger package than what I suggested. There is little doubt in my mind that the Lakers wouldn't have dealt for Kawhi if the asking price was that low and the Spurs were willing to trade with them.

 

It's no different than the Raptors situation really; if it's a foregone conclusion he's going to LA next year you are trading for one year of him whether you are the Lakers or the Raptors. That one year with Lebron is worth a lot IMO.

[Bobthe4th]

Derozan is one of the most overrated players in the league. His advanced metrics are horrible and the raptors have been better with him off the court consistently for his entire career.

 

Maybe the spurs can use their voodoo magic to teach him to shoot a 3 and stop being horrible on defense but for now he's a negative on the court making 30 million a year.

 

Nah, that’s obviously not true. You’re saying if DeRozan had been injured / held out, the Raptors would have won more games last year?

 

Advanced basketball metrics aren’t as useful or accurate as in baseball.

[Terminator]

TBF there was zero chance Leonard was ever going to play for the Spurs again.

 

You’re also underating DeRozan - he’s not the greatest player in the league and has obvious flaws, but come on he was All NBA second team last year.

 

I also think you’re right when you say Pop has no interest in rebuilding in his last few years, so they weren’t interested in whatever offers they received that were based on picks/younger players.

 

The All NBA teams are like the gold glove awards. Can't trust them.

 

The metrics hate DD but even if we ignore those and say he's a good player, he's not worth 29 million a year. So he has negative value on his contract and he also represents an opportunity cost in that he eats up so much of the cap space that he prevents you from adding other players to the team.

[dineke]

Nah, that’s obviously not true. You’re saying if DeRozan had been injured / held out, the Raptors would have won more games last year?

 

Advanced basketball metrics aren’t as useful or accurate as in baseball.

 

Yes, he's bad.

[Bobthe4th]

Yes, he's bad.

 

That’s objectively false.

[Terminator]

Nah, that’s obviously not true. You’re saying if DeRozan had been injured / held out, the Raptors would have won more games last year?

 

Advanced basketball metrics aren’t as useful or accurate as in baseball.

 

It sounds weird but yes. When he's out of the lineup the offense doesn't fall off much and the defense is much better.

 

This is because he's about league average when it comes to scoring efficiency. He uses volume to get the lofty scoring totals he has. That isn't necessarily a bad thing because not every league average scorer could simply shoot more and become 20+ ppg scorers while maintaining decent efficiencies. But still, he's not amazing offensively, he's simply good to above average but looks like he's good because he uses up a lot of volume. In the playoffs he is horrible because teams play better defense and all the free throws he gets dry up. Without those he's not good offensively.

 

On defense he's terrible. One of the worst in the league. So if you replace him with an average defender and scorer (idk someone like VanVleet probably) and the team will player better. They don't score much less per 100 possessions but they give up a lot less points.

 

It sounds weird to say they'd be better without DD but it's true. It's not weird to say that about Rudy Gay when he was in his prime. They can put up some gaudy stats and look good doing it but overall they don't add much to the win total. DD has just been lucky because he has such a good team around him that the team still wins a lot.

[dineke]

It sounds weird but yes. When he's out of the lineup the offense doesn't fall off much and the defense is much better.

 

This is because he's about league average when it comes to scoring efficiency. He uses volume to get the lofty scoring totals he has. That isn't necessarily a bad thing because not every league average scorer could simply shoot more and become 20+ ppg scorers while maintaining decent efficiencies. But still, he's not amazing offensively, he's simply good to above average but looks like he's good because he uses up a lot of volume.

 

On defense he's terrible. One of the worst in the league. So if you replace him with an average defender and scorer (idk someone like VanVleet probably) and the team will player better. They don't score much less per 100 possessions but they give up a lot less points.

 

It sounds weird to say they'd be better without DD but it's true. He's kind of like Rudy Gay when he was in his prime. They can put up some gaudy stats and look good doing it but overall they don't add much to the win total. DD has just been lucky because he has such a good team around him that the team still wins a lot.

 

they're probably better on offense too. Valanciunas gets a bunch more shots. Better spacing so everyone else can score more easily.

[Terminator]

Nah they're probably better on offense too. Valanciunas gets a bunch more shots.

 

Yeah it all depends on who is getting the extra possessions that are gained when DD isn't on the floor.

[dineke]

Yeah it all depends on who is getting the extra possessions that are gained when DD isn't on the floor.

 

We replaced our most detrimental player with a top 5 player. Masai is a wizard

[Bobthe4th]

It sounds weird but yes. When he's out of the lineup the offense doesn't fall off much and the defense is much better.

 

This is because he's about league average when it comes to scoring efficiency. He uses volume to get the lofty scoring totals he has. That isn't necessarily a bad thing because not every league average scorer could simply shoot more and become 20+ ppg scorers while maintaining decent efficiencies. But still, he's not amazing offensively, he's simply good to above average but looks like he's good because he uses up a lot of volume. In the playoffs he is horrible because teams play better defense and all the free throws he gets dry up. Without those he's not good offensively.

 

On defense he's terrible. One of the worst in the league. So if you replace him with an average defender and scorer (idk someone like VanVleet probably) and the team will player better. They don't score much less per 100 possessions but they give up a lot less points.

 

It sounds weird to say they'd be better without DD but it's true. It's not weird to say that about Rudy Gay when he was in his prime. They can put up some gaudy stats and look good doing it but overall they don't add much to the win total. DD has just been lucky because he has such a good team around him that the team still wins a lot.

 

I obviously don’t agree, but it’s an interesting debate.

 

In sports like baseball and cricket, where you have a series of controlled, repeated encounters, mainly 1 on 1, with limited variables, that can be compared over time, you can rely on stat scouting to value a player. There’s lots of advanced stats that can drill down and give useful data on top of raw data.

 

For more fluid team sports like basketball and soccer there are too many variables to consistently and usefully compare one play/move to another. Actually watching players and evaluating their skills is more useful than stats, advanced or otherwise. TBF you probably watched more Raptors games last year than I did anyway!

[Terminator]

We replaced our most detrimental player with a top 5 player. Masai is a wizard

 

Yeah people are really selling the Raps short in both this deal and their prospects for the upcoming season. They have a lot of really good players and now they just replaced a middling high volume scorer with a superstar. Everyone will be on the Celtics to win the East but I think the Raptors could be a good bet depending on the odds.

[onwego]

Yeah people are really selling the Raps short in both this deal and their prospects for the upcoming season. They have a lot of really good players and now they just replaced a middling high volume scorer with a superstar. Everyone will be on the Celtics to win the East but I think the Raptors could be a good bet depending on the odds.

 

 

Sixers are going to be very good as well

[connorp]

Well they got you guys starting to sip the juice again so that alone says it’s a really good deal

[Orgfiller]

Yeah people are really selling the Raps short in both this deal and their prospects for the upcoming season. They have a lot of really good players and now they just replaced a middling high volume scorer with a superstar. Everyone will be on the Celtics to win the East but I think the Raptors could be a good bet depending on the odds.

 

The Raptors should definitely be favourites in the East, top 3 team in the conference easily. Arguably a top 3 team in the league after the Warriors and in the mix with the Rockets, Celtics, Sixers.

 

The improvement of going from Derozan to a (potentially) healthy Kawhi Leonard is massive, and we also added Danny Green who is gonna solidify the team a lot. At the end of the day, I like Poeltl but losing him is not nearly as big a hit as it would have been losing OG, Siakam or Delon. We also brought back VanVleet who was brilliant off the bench. We do need to acquire a backup big since Ibaka is awful and Nogueira was non-tendered.

[Orgfiller]

Well they got you guys starting to sip the juice again so that alone says it’s a really good deal

 

No one's sipping any juice lol. The Raptors objectively got better for next season, lost a big contract which facilitates the rebuild if/when Leonard walks, and didn't lose their top young players to do so. No one's beating Golden State this year, might as well see if we can make a push in the playoffs and give the fans a Finals appearance before we might have to start rebuilding.

[burlingtonbandit]

People are underrating Danny Green too. Honestly with Kawhi on the team he(Green) fits the team better than Derozan. Offensively you can stick him on the perimeter to knock down 3s while Lowry, Kawhi, FVV and Delon play on the ball. Defensively he is way better than Derozan and can guard 3 positions.

 

Derozan's shots get spread around to more efficient scorers while gaining a huge advantage on defense. I haven't been this excited to watch a Raptors season in my life. Add in Nurse calling the shots and I'm really excited to see all the creative lineups.

[burlingtonbandit]

Give me a 35% shot at making the Finals and a 15% chance of a championship for one year over 3 straight 50+ win seasons 2nd round playoff exits.

 

You were going to have to rebuild after 2020 anyway so you have a way better chance this year in exchange for a transition year the year after. If by a miracle Kawhi stays then you have a pretty good chance of a FA star after 2020 and continue to be a championship contender. If he leaves then you start the rebuild you were going to have to do regardless.

[Abomination]

We do need to acquire a backup big since Ibaka is awful and Nogueira was non-tendered.

 

I think I saw some talk about them giving some of JV's minutes to Ibaka at center next year, unfortunately.

[Krylian]

I think I saw some talk about them giving some of JV's minutes to Ibaka at center next year, unfortunately.

 

Smaller rotation, more 3s. Warriors say hi.

[burlingtonbandit]

I think I saw some talk about them giving some of JV's minutes to Ibaka at center next year, unfortunately.

 

Ibaka would be an above average backup 5. Honestly at this point in his career that's his best position given his decrease in athleticism.

 

He's a terrible rebounder but still a good defender and 3 point shooter.

[Abomination]

Raps sign Greg Monroe to a 1 year / 2.2M deal. Can't really complain.

[Jonn]

Raps sign Greg Monroe to a 1 year / 2.2M deal. Can't really complain.

 

He can rebound and pass really well for a big man which will be important in a Nick Nurse offence. But hes a poor defender and doesn't address rim protection. He can be useful in spare minutes. I hate to say it but I almost prefer Bebe. If Monroe is in shape and motivated I like it though.

[Orgfiller]

He's basically the anti-Nogueira. Whatever, he won't be playing important minutes and it's a cheap deal, not bad as your fourth option big (JV, Siakam, Ibaka).

[burlingtonbandit]

Yeah seems like an odd fit. Low risk signing can always release him during the year if it doesn't work out.

 

Pretty excited for the season. Schedule should be coming out soon.

[Krylian]

Not sure who's harder to like, Marcus Stroman or Kyle Lowry.

[Orgfiller]

Not sure who's harder to like, Marcus Stroman or Kyle Lowry.

 

What has Kyle Lowry done to make himself unlikeable? Consistently be the Raps' best player but accept not taking the spotlight?

 

Lowry and Stroman are nothing alike except being black and short for their respective sports.

[Krylian]

What has Kyle Lowry done to make himself unlikeable? Consistently be the Raps' best player but accept not taking the spotlight?

 

Lowry and Stroman are nothing alike except being black and short for their respective sports.

 

He's still grumpy about the DeRozan trade. He cares more about his friend getting dealt than the fact that his team is better now.

[Orgfiller]

He's still grumpy about the DeRozan trade. He cares more about his friend getting dealt than the fact that his team is better now.

 

He's allowed to have feelings. No s*** he's not thrilled about his best friend being moved to another team, would you be? As usual, he'll be a total professional and continue to give it his all on the court and lead us to many victories like he has before. He's never even expressed any displeasure with what the org has done from a pure business and basketball perspective, did you listen to his interview yesterday or did you simply read a couple of clickbait reports?

[Krylian]

He was dodging calls and texts from both Masai Ujiri and Nick Nurse over the summer.

 

I like that the firing of Casey and trade of DeRozan was basically an indictment of that era. They had multiple seasons, made it to the Eastern finals once, and underperformed in the playoffs every other year. If Lowry is mad at that, fine... But he was part of the failure... So I hope he's mad at himself. I may be wrong, but I think it's gonna be a rocky road with Lowry going forward.