NHL Thread

[Frag]

What's with the Leafs giving multi-year commitments to established NHL players, and then deciding shortly after that they don't actually want them? Connolly, Grabovski, now Liles just in Nonis' tenure. Bush-league.

 

Connolly was just a 2-year contract, so it wasn't that long-term. Grabovski and Liles were both Burke's extensions. Guess Nonis didn't agree with them (or he's letting Crafty Randy in charge of managing the team's roster)

[Tuco]

With Liles he was a much more effective player last season before he got concussed.

The bigtime mistake was giving the guy a new contract when he hadnt yet returned from a head injury to prove he was the same player.

[Frag]

So you want to play Colborne 5 minutes a game similar to what Orr or McLaren got?

 

Sure, why not? He surely could provide more value than either of those two.

 

Colborne is a center. He wasnt better then any of Kadri, Bozak, Bolland or McLement. Thus he either needed to be sent down (which he couldnt without being exposed to waivers, which he would have gotten claimed) or traded for a draft pick/prospect in which you could shed his 600,000 K.

 

He wasn't better, but again the issue is depth. Who do the Leafs have beyond those four if one of them goes down with an injury? Even if Colborne isn't that offensive forward everyone wants him to be, and is relegated to the press box often, he would still likely be a better option than, say, Greg McKegg.

 

I dont see the big deal over this. Colborne pretty much sucked both in the AHL and when he was given oppurtunity with the big club and hes now 23 and doesnt look to be getting any better.

 

The big deal for me isn't as much Colborne as much as the team's overvaluing of useless goons and managing a team with such an idiotic philosophy. It's a philosophy I'm going to be forced to accept because these idiots in charge likely won't be leaving any time soon (probably barring a major collapse this season, but even then I don't trust this team finding competent management long-term).

[Frag]

Perreault just traded to the Ducks for a minor leaguer (John "not Malkin" Mitchell) and a 4th. If that's all it took, wow!

[Tuco]

Sure, why not? He surely could provide more value than either of those two.

 

 

 

He wasn't better, but again the issue is depth. Who do the Leafs have beyond those four if one of them goes down with an injury? Even if Colborne isn't that offensive forward everyone wants him to be, and is relegated to the press box often, he would still likely be a better option than, say, Greg McKegg.

 

 

 

The big deal for me isn't as much Colborne as much as the team's overvaluing of useless goons and managing a team with such an idiotic philosophy. It's a philosophy I'm going to be forced to accept because these idiots in charge likely won't be leaving any time soon (probably barring a major collapse this season, but even then I don't trust this team finding competent management long-term).

 

Even if you want to argue his value on the 4th line vs that of ORR/McLaren theres many guys that can fill that role that outplayed Colborne in training camp (Broll, Leivo, Bodie). Colborne wasnt a guy that had a fantastic camp and you needed to find a spot for. He was a guy that has basically been underhwhelming since he was aquired and they decided to trade him for a 4th rounder and shed his salary rather then losing him to waivers. The Leafs now have something like 3 4th rounders and those things became regularly trade bait come trade deadline. If Colborne had come out and had a stellar camp and forced the teams hand then things would have been different but it sounds like they basically just gave up on the guy. Seems like a guy who just plays with no fire or intensity and thats something this staff cant get behind.

 

If one of Kadri, Bozak or Bolland get injured you just bump up McLement. If one of the top 2 C's get injured just bump up Bolland. Finding a C that can play 4th line minutes isnt that hard and theres tons of these guys all around the NHL that can be had for scraps. The Leafs lack that star power down the middle but they actually have pretty good depth at the position. Not many teams can say they have 4 decent C's and McLement is one of the best 4th line C's in the league.

 

I dont have nearly as much of a issue with play style as you do. As a guy who played competitive hockey his whole life and was on the smaller side I think goons or designated fighters bring more value to a team then some would imagine but thats always up for debate.

[theblujay]

I'm really glad Rielly and Ashton made the team. I can't wait for the season to start, its time get rid of my last memory of the Leafs from game 7.

[Frag]

Even if you want to argue his value on the 4th line vs that of ORR/McLaren theres many guys that can fill that role that outplayed Colborne in training camp (Broll, Leivo, Bodie). Colborne wasnt a guy that had a fantastic camp and you needed to find a spot for. He was a guy that has basically been underhwhelming since he was aquired and they decided to trade him for a 4th rounder and shed his salary rather then losing him to waivers. The Leafs now have something like 3 4th rounders and those things became regularly trade bait come trade deadline. If Colborne had come out and had a stellar camp and forced the teams hand then things would have been different but it sounds like they basically just gave up on the guy. Seems like a guy who just plays with no fire or intensity and thats something this staff cant get behind.

 

I don't have a problem with that (in fact, I would have loved to see Leivo make the team; maybe Broll, who I would easily take over Orr/FML). I don't know about Colborne's intensity (just because he doesn't hit everything that moves doesn't mean he lacks the passion to play), but I do know that, as you said, he didn't have a good camp. With that said, if a player who is physical and fights ALSO provides skill (the latter more important than the former, though physicality can be an aspect of that player's skillset), then I'm fine with that. If a player who fights/plays physical isn't talented, he is a waste of a roster space no matter if he's taking the spot from Colborne or Leivo or Broll.

 

If one of Kadri, Bozak or Bolland get injured you just bump up McLement. If one of the top 2 C's get injured just bump up Bolland. Finding a C that can play 4th line minutes isnt that hard and theres tons of these guys all around the NHL that can be had for scraps. The Leafs lack that star power down the middle but they actually have pretty good depth at the position. Not many teams can say they have 4 decent C's and McLement is one of the best 4th line C's in the league.

 

This is another reason why the Grabovski buyout was short-sighted. The way you explain that depth, you are assuming that Bozak and Bolland (or McClement, for that matter) are average to above average centres for their roles. Bozak is most likely a 3rd line C on most teams, Bolland's play worries me in that he has been going down the last few seasons (and he played AWFULLY with Sharp and Kane last season, mind you in a short season), and McClement really blows at even strength (no matter where I look, I groan whenever I look at his 5v5 numbers; he's great on the PK, though). The only C you mention who should be mentioned in the top 6 is Kadri, which is fine but I wouldn't exactly call that "good depth".

 

Now, if someone goes down with an injury, the Leafs could sign a C like Steckel off the FA market if they have enough cap space.

 

I dont have nearly as much of a issue with play style as you do. As a guy who played competitive hockey his whole life and was on the smaller side I think goons or designated fighters bring more value to a team then some would imagine but thats always up for debate.

 

I find that goons or designated fighters who can't play hockey to save their lives shouldn't play in the NHL, since they bring no value to a team whatsoever. People talk about how Orr/FML scares off teams from going after their star players, yet I see nothing of that sort on the ice. If you are physical/a fighter but can also pass the puck well, skate well, and/or shoot the puck at a good rate, I'll take you on my team.

[GD]

I'm really glad Rielly and Ashton made the team. I can't wait for the season to start, its time get rid of my last memory of the Leafs from game 7.

 

I think this is the only thread in which we have common ground.

[Frag]

So apparently the Leafs are calling up Bodie to replace the injured McLaren. Leafs need to maintain their facepuncher quota of 2 at all times (although Bodie is more talented than either Orr or FML).

[GD]

So apparently the Leafs are calling up Bodie to replace the injured McLaren. Leafs need to maintain their facepuncher quota of 2 at all times (although Bodie is more talented than either Orr or FML).

 

If only we had a decent prospect who's physically tough with mild potential to replace him.

 

Fack dis teem

[Tuco]

I don't have a problem with that (in fact, I would have loved to see Leivo make the team; maybe Broll, who I would easily take over Orr/FML). I don't know about Colborne's intensity (just because he doesn't hit everything that moves doesn't mean he lacks the passion to play), but I do know that, as you said, he didn't have a good camp. With that said, if a player who is physical and fights ALSO provides skill (the latter more important than the former, though physicality can be an aspect of that player's skillset), then I'm fine with that. If a player who fights/plays physical isn't talented, he is a waste of a roster space no matter if he's taking the spot from Colborne or Leivo or Broll.

 

 

 

This is another reason why the Grabovski buyout was short-sighted. The way you explain that depth, you are assuming that Bozak and Bolland (or McClement, for that matter) are average to above average centres for their roles. Bozak is most likely a 3rd line C on most teams, Bolland's play worries me in that he has been going down the last few seasons (and he played AWFULLY with Sharp and Kane last season, mind you in a short season), and McClement really blows at even strength (no matter where I look, I groan whenever I look at his 5v5 numbers; he's great on the PK, though). The only C you mention who should be mentioned in the top 6 is Kadri, which is fine but I wouldn't exactly call that "good depth".

 

Now, if someone goes down with an injury, the Leafs could sign a C like Steckel off the FA market if they have enough cap space.

 

 

 

I find that goons or designated fighters who can't play hockey to save their lives shouldn't play in the NHL, since they bring no value to a team whatsoever. People talk about how Orr/FML scares off teams from going after their star players, yet I see nothing of that sort on the ice. If you are physical/a fighter but can also pass the puck well, skate well, and/or shoot the puck at a good rate, I'll take you on my team.

 

Dude thats been Colborne's MO going back to when he played with Camrose of the AJHL. He was always seen as a big guy with soft hands and good skill but played extremely soft and regulary didnt really engage and was a onlooker. This is pretty much what I saw from him in the AHL with the Marlies, his little stint last year and also this past training camp. Didnt really use his body and played passively and thats really concerning considering he was basically playing for his nhl future with the club. I can fully get behind the idea of having a guy like Broll who can skate, has some alright hands and takes the body playing over someone like Orr or McLaren. I'm one of the people who think fighting as a hole is useless and the sport would be better off just banishing it all together but until it goes away there will always be a place for goons like it or not.

 

I dont think its all that far fetched to think both Bozak and Bolland will give you average performance and I'm not a fan of either guy. Bollands lack of speed and the fact he sucks at faceoffs really worries me but he still should be a effective 3rd line center that gives you around 15 goals/15 assists while playing decent D and giving you PK minutes. See now this is where I have some issues with the analytics crew. So you say McLement is "brutal" 5 on 5 but I dont really see it. I see a guy whos solid defensively, a great backchecker, is strong positionally, doesnt turn the puck over and can skate really well for a 4th line guy. Obviously his Corsi, fenwick etc say hes not good 5 vs 5 and doesnt drive puck possesion but when I watch the guy play hes defenitely not a detriment at even strength especially for a guy whos playing a checking line role many times with 2 other scrubs. The Leafs have depth on the roster at C whether thats "good depth" or just depth can be argued. Like I said previously finding bottom 6 C's arent exactly hard as teams are always willing to deal these guys mid season for mid round draft picks. I actually like Greg McKegg better then Colborne and in limited action he prolly played as well this training camp as Colborne did.

 

I'm with you in the sense I would rather have a guy like Thornton or Boll who can play a little I'm just saying that these guys bring more to the table then meets the eye and its not just about preventing things like the Scott fiasco (by the way Mcsorley said today on radio that if Orr was dressed theres no way Scott goes after Kessel). From what I experianced having fighters in your lineup allows the smaller more finesse players to play with more confidence because they know they always have someone looking out for them and these guys are usually always the best in the dressing room. If I was going up against a tough team in a tough barn it felt much better to have some protection and a player who was going to have your back no matter what. This stuff will never show up on a stat sheet but I gurantee if you go talk to guys like Kessel or Kadri they will tell you they love having guys like Orr or McLaren on there team because it makes there lives easier. You can scoff at that bit if you like but mostly anyone thats played the game at a high level will agree with it.

 

I agree with you that having a "skilled" fighter who can skate is great I just dont agree with the notion that having a guy like Orr on your roster is totally useless.

[GD]

Broll over Orr is my dream right now.

[GD]

http://www.canadianbusiness.com/companies-and-industries/money-puck-2/

 

Money Puck. With +/- and hits. How about nooooooooooooo.

[Tuco]

http://www.canadianbusiness.com/companies-and-industries/money-puck-2/

 

Money Puck. With +/- and hits. How about nooooooooooooo.

 

+/- is the worst stat ever

[GD]

Not as bad as PIM being positively viewed. A low PIM(fighting not included)/game should be ideal.

 

I've never gotten that.

[Frag]

See now this is where I have some issues with the analytics crew. So you say McLement is "brutal" 5 on 5 but I dont really see it. I see a guy whos solid defensively, a great backchecker, is strong positionally, doesnt turn the puck over and can skate really well for a 4th line guy. Obviously his Corsi, fenwick etc say hes not good 5 vs 5 and doesnt drive puck possesion but when I watch the guy play hes defenitely not a detriment at even strength especially for a guy whos playing a checking line role many times with 2 other scrubs.

 

Sorry for the numbers, since you state that you have issues with Corsi, but I think this calls for it. I actually looked into this problem with Corsi with dCorsi (an updated version of that stat will be incorporated into Extra Skater's player database) by finding the differential between a player's actual CF or CA and his expected CF or CA (based on usage; ie. QOT, QOC, zone starts, etc.). Going by dCA per 20, McClement was alright in the defensive zone at even strength last season relative to other 3rd/4th liners (dCA20 ~ 0). However, going by dCF20, that's where he really faltered (dCF20 ~ -3.3). His numbers over the past 6 seasons look similar. Knowing that Sh% matters for forwards, and that it's dependent on whatever line they play on, I accounted for that. Even accounting for Sh%, he still didn't look too good (Estimated dGD ~ -3.7).

 

Hockey is a two-way game, so while he does provide value in one end, he provides little in the other. No matter how many defensive zone starts you give him, he's still not going to look good overall. He is valuable on the PK and in very specific defensive situations at even strength, however.

 

I'm with you in the sense I would rather have a guy like Thornton or Boll who can play a little I'm just saying that these guys bring more to the table then meets the eye and its not just about preventing things like the Scott fiasco (by the way Mcsorley said today on radio that if Orr was dressed theres no way Scott goes after Kessel). From what I experianced having fighters in your lineup allows the smaller more finesse players to play with more confidence because they know they always have someone looking out for them and these guys are usually always the best in the dressing room. If I was going up against a tough team in a tough barn it felt much better to have some protection and a player who was going to have your back no matter what. This stuff will never show up on a stat sheet but I gurantee if you go talk to guys like Kessel or Kadri they will tell you they love having guys like Orr or McLaren on there team because it makes there lives easier. You can scoff at that bit if you like but mostly anyone thats played the game at a high level will agree with it.

 

I agree with you that having a "skilled" fighter who can skate is great I just dont agree with the notion that having a guy like Orr on your roster is totally useless.

 

I think we have to agree to disagree on this point.

[Frag]

http://www.canadianbusiness.com/companies-and-industries/money-puck-2/

 

Money Puck. With +/- and hits. How about nooooooooooooo.

 

The CHL really needs to include TOI and shots data (glad the QMJHL is starting on the latter).

[theblujay]

Less than 24 hours...

[havok24]

Looks like Kessel will sign a new contract with the Leafs prior to the start of the season tomorrow.

[GD]

I heard in the 7-8 year range for 7.5-8.5M per year.

 

http://25.media.tumblr.com/708c3398f5a1b8fe7dcf4dc74fcecf4d/tumblr_mgdldwQEX01qbvylso1_500.gif

 

Excellent.

[GD]

awesome.

[G-Snarls]

I heard in the 7-8 year range for 7.5-8.5M per year.

 

Done deal

 

8 years 64M per Rogers radio

[Frag]

Someone's not happy of this extension:

 

[G-Snarls]

Also confirmed by Tyler Bozak's Twitter. LOL

[Frag]

Also confirmed by Tyler Bozak's Twitter. LOL

 

Holy hell thank God he's signed! What would I do without him? #Coattails

 

Fixed

[GD]

I'm feeling bipolar with Nonis. He makes a ton of s*** moves but sprinkles in some really solid ones. Want to see how he deals with the Dion extension. Thank god Kess is back though.

[Frag]

I'm feeling bipolar with Nonis. He makes a ton of s*** moves but sprinkles in some really solid ones. Want to see how he deals with the Dion extension. Thank god Kess is back though.

 

He did once steal Luongo from Florida...

[havok24]

I'm feeling bipolar with Nonis. He makes a ton of s*** moves but sprinkles in some really solid ones. Want to see how he deals with the Dion extension. Thank god Kess is back though.

 

Yup. Amazing to get Kessel locked up prior to the season starting.

[The Cats Ass]

Done deal

 

8 years 64M per Rogers radio

 

This is awesome! He would have got quite a bit more on the open market next year. Signed for all his prime years, I keep forgetting he's only 25 years old!

[G-Snarls]

This is awesome! He would have got quite a bit more on the open market next year. Signed for all his prime years, I keep forgetting he's only 25 years old!

 

s***, me too. I thought he was like late 20's. 8 years probably actually makes sense.