Brownie19

Unpopular opinion, but I don't think Kirby needed to to back peddle. IMO, there's nothing wrong with a starting pitcher who's aware that a large increase in IP from one year to the next often leads to reduced performance (which he's already seeing - last 4 starts haven't been good) and increases the chances of injury. He may also know they need him to be healthy and have something left if they are going to go deep in the playoffs. You could also take it as him praising the bullpen - suggesting he'd done his job and it was time to turn it over to their awesome bullpen. Obviously a lot of fans want every pitcher to be this bulldog like Nolan Ryan, but I don't have an issue with someone who understands probabilities and realizes they aren't invincible. That said - I don't think he should have gone public with it - that was the issue. Have that discussion behind closed doors.

And the Score just reported that Jansen had surgery on his finger and will miss the rest of the regular season

This feels like a great time for a leader on the team to take him out for dinner and try and talk some sense into him. Perhaps you wait until the season is over. Springer - I think that's you buddy. A slim/healthy, confident and happy Manoah would be a huge help to the team in 2024 and moving forward (rebuilding his trade value if necessary). I players have to know this and I think they should take an active role in helping him put both the buffet and his ego aside and get back to helping this team win a championship.

I certainly think the FO will take a good hard look at trading him this offseason. That's really unfortunate as we know they'll get 10 cents on the dollar for what should have been a core piece. The guy is a douchebag though.

Not sure what the heck you mean about coming down hard on him. This isn't public school. There very well could be grievances filed through the union on this and a bunch of s*** happening in the background.

That's fair. I would never say it's "all bad luck" - but there's probably a significant portion that is, which, as Laika said, may have lead to a variety of other issues/factors.

You keep saying this sarcastically like luck isn't a significant component of the outcomes in baseball. How come?

https://nypost.com/2023/09/07/nationals-cancel-stephen-strasburgs-retirement-ceremony/ Strasburg had a retirement ceremony scheduled for this upcoming Saturday, but it was canceled by the Nationals, The Athletic’s Britt Ghiroli reported. “It was the Nationals who approached Strasburg about retiring and paying him the full amount of his contract, sources briefed on the matter say. The team wants to change the terms,” Ghiroli tweeted. Yikes - this sounds messy

I'm not surprised. Manoah comes off as a huge douche. Hopefully the testing he's getting is fitness testing and his next step is to check into Jenny Craig. I originally thought that Manoah might swallow his pride, get into the gym with a chip on his shoulder and do everything he can to return to his previous form. I'm a lot less hopeful that will happen these days.

You literally said the Rangers "whiffed" and then said "Jays did with Frasso to lessee extent but they also got 0 in return". "They also got 0 in return" suggests both teams got 0. English is tough eh? Must be all that 8+" sausage your taking in Poland.

I tend to agree with this - and I don't think Max is busted. 1 really bad start v. Astros and another rough one v. Brewers....but in his last start before the Astros game, he threw 6 shutout innings, giving up 1 hit v. the Twins. That said, long term, I'm not so sure about them unless they keep spending like mad men.

But Texas didn't get 0 in return. Chapman's been worth 0.5 WAR in like 22 innings and his pitching almost exactly how you'd expect him to - he's just gotten bitten by the long ball a bit (after not giving up any with the Royals - which wasn't sustainable). This comparison is awful.

You have to think teams will just start pounding the zone on him and forcing him to hit the ball instead of walk. Hard to see him having success with an ISO < .100

Urias is lucky to have a bombshell like that with his f***ed up eye. If you didn't know, you might think she's the one who's slugged him a few times.

That's fair. I guess it depends on what your argument is. If you're trying to counter all those who think Espi should be cut, then that's a great argument. I don't personally think the Jays should move on from Espi. I think he's a solid bench piece. I think the same of Biggio.

Yes, since April 17th, Espi has a wRC+ of 100 and Biggio's is 97. They've been worth 0.4 and 0.3 WAR respectfully. Over the same period, Vlad has been worth 0.1 WAR. Move the date to 1 week later and Espi is at a wRC+ of 93, while Cavan is at 108 Jump forward another week (May 1st) and Espi is at a wRC+ of 87, while Cavan is at 111

But he doesn't have to be a starter in the league. He was their 4th round draft pick last year who played well when given an opportunity....and they don't have a backup QB. Why release the guy? There must be more to the story - but your analogy is stupid.

yes.

I mean what if Teo had a down year? (which he has...) Again, it's all about the probability of the outcomes. As Olerud has explained, the Jays had several options which could have replaced Teo. It turns out that both KK and Belt have replaced what Teo has provided this year, while Varsho was also projected to (in the preseason) and has from a pure WAR perspective. They traded him for long term assets, with the plan of adding a various others who could replace him. Could it all have failed miserably? Of course there was a probability that happened, but the Jays probably felt it was a reasonably low chance. And while it's hard to say this now because we didn't add one at the deadline (when I would agree we should have), but replacing bat first (only?) corner outfielders has historically been one of the easiest positions in baseball to fill - so a backup plan would have been an in-season addition.

This seems to be the disconnect and source of our discussions. I lean against judging a FO strictly by the results. They make decisions based off projected performances and each comes with a probability of different results (let's call them way beyond expectations, at expectations and way below expectations for simplification). There are SO many variables that can affect the results - most of which are outside of the FO's control. I'm not going to s*** on the FO for the underperformances by Vlad, Manoah, Kirk, Varsho, Chapman, Espi, Cimber, etc., just as I'm not going to praise them for the unlikely emergence of Davis Schneider, Genesis, Clement, etc. There's a ton of luck and variables involved in all of those results. I think it's unreasonable to blame the FO for the failures of so many key/core players and the resulting win-loss record. Blame the players themselves. That said, I will praise them for adding and maintaining depth at the upper minors and on the ML roster this year. They've added several bodies and put themselves in a position to strike gold with certain guys at the most opportune time, which has kept us in the playoff race, despite so many of our core guys s***ing the bed. Will it continue? Maybe, maybe not. I think far too many people like to blame 1 entity directly, when the reality is there's all kinds of variables at play (including luck) and the blame should be shared by several. I do get my back up when people start blaming 1 entity (FO, manager, hitting coach, etc.) with firm opinions that they are obviously to blame - because I think that's really stupid. That said, I also understand it's human nature to want to narrow it down and blame 1 person for the results of an entire team (I just wish it wasn't).

I generally agree with this; however, the issue is the likelihood of Gibson being a consistent workhorse this year was MUCH lower than it was for Bassitt and I suspect the FO looked at guys like Kikucci, Berrios and Ryu (and our lack of quality depth in the upper minors) and said - f*** that - we can't afford to take this risk - we need to go with someone who our evaluators believe is more of a sure thing because there's too much variance in the rotation currently...

I don't treat prominent posters who make rational criticism about this team or FO as idiots or morons. I treat you like you're an idiot and a moron OK that was too easy...

You don't have to be very smart to see that trading 1 year of Teo for Swanson, Macko and 1 year of Belt (or KK) was a fantastic decision and excellent roster management that allowed us to compete this year and sustain winning in the future. I don't see any other way to look at this honestly.

Jackson Holiday has been moved up to AAA and both Dylan Crews and Wyatt Langford were moved up to AA (after having almost identical results in A ball - 192 wRC+ and 5 hrs each)

He's exactly what we signed up for IMO. He's a workhorse (6th in MLB in IP) who battles and keeps you in games. He's 46th in MLB in WAR for starting pitchers and has been a solid, reliable #2/#3 starter for the Jays. Given the uncertainty of Kikucci, Berrios and Ryu - the team needed someone they could rely on this year and he's done just that.