glory

The Osuna trade was good given the circumstances, but that same trade would have been considered disappointing had Osuna not been involved in DV/legal issues at the time. They have a chance to make up for it though with a Giles trade, which hopefully yields at least one impact prospect. Return for Giles + Perez + Paulino might end up being a net positive, possibly significant net positive (depends on what the return for Giles is).

I think Thornton is a multi inning reliever long term, so I'd rate Borucki's ceiling as a SP higher, but his injury history is serious enough to cause some pause.

Stroman and Giles both need to be traded for legit top prospects. Anything less and extending them becomes a more value driven option.

I must have missed this, but where the hell is David Paulino? It says he was placed on the 7 day injured list on 5/7, but no word since.

I think baseball will always exist, but its relevancy is definitely dropping, with no signs of it climbing back any time soon, if ever again.

My point was Shapiro has said publicly that he believes in supplementing through free agency, not using it to build. In other words, he’d rather develop Gerrit Cole and sign 2016 Happ than sign Cole to a monster contract. That approach will work if Shatkins succeeds in developing internally but it also means it’s not Rogers holding the team back from signing expensive free agents. It will be the front office. The bright side is it has never been easier to supplement through free agency (see 2019 Twins). Bad news is we don’t have anything to supplement, and probably won’t for a few years.

It won't be Rogers that prevents the Jays from getting free agents, it will be Shatkins. They do not like free agency, and I think Shapiro has said as much publicly. The biggest test for Atkins will be when he starts trading prospects for vets. In the current market, free agency is cheap, and vets with 1-2 years of control left are not as expensive to acquire in trades. That's where a quick turnaround could be possible, but if he's planning on trading Stroman, then the rotation will need practically 5 new starters unless you believe Thornton can stick there long term and Sanchez can throw 2 innings without his fingers falling off.

Grichuk will go on his usual hot streak in the summer when the Jays are like 20 games under .500, so at least there's that.

I'd be thrilled if he turns into a 3 WAR player. 5-7 is very unrealistic, even in a best case scenario. They guessed right with Smoak, so I'll trust their judgment, but players with BB%'s that low (and K%'s that high) are usually not consistently good, unless he turns into Javy Baez.

I said at the time, I don't trust a guy with his BB/K rate long term, especially since we have years of data to show that he kinda is what he is. A streaky hitter with power and a ~2 WAR type. You don't give $50 mil to those types in a market where 2 win players are signing minor league deals. Who knows maybe he proves me wrong, I hope he does, but I don't think it was a smart move. Surplus potential is limited unless his bat takes off.

So instead of acknowledging what I feel are bad moves, it's best to wear blinders and pretend everything is great? Only the latter makes someone a fan? That's warped thinking, and you are being way too literal if you took "dread" as a serious statement.

The Grichuk extension was questionable at the time, and even if he ends up with his usual summer hot streak to get a 2 ish WAR, that's still not worth $50 mil. I'm going to dread seeing Stroman and Giles go, while having to sit and watch Grichuk for the next five years.

I agree about Stroman. I think they have to re-sign him. The pitching in the system aside from Pearson looks pretty bad/unspectacular, and we have a 3+ WAR starter who wants to stay in Toronto and is embracing the rebuild as far as helping young players. He absolutely should be extended, as long as he's not asking for an insane number. As you said, Giles can be moved for the right haul since he's a reliever, and I think a lot of our SP depth in AAA will end up in the pen and might be potential closers (SRF, Paulino, Perez). However, the return has to be right. I don't want to trade guys just to get 40 man roster depth. Either get real prospects or improve the big league team by keeping the good big leaguers. What I might do with Sanchez is just move him to the pen and trade him next trade deadline as a RP. It might be too late for that now (plus he has a big enough ego to make a stink about not starting), but next year in his FA year just make him the set up man. He'll probably be a better trade asset even as a rental that way than he would be as a SP who can't go 2 starts without his finger nail falling off. I'd also look to trade some 40 man roster depth, and some fringe type prospects for more MLB help on the pitching side. Arb eligible inning eaters like Tanner Roark could have helped the 2018 rotation and could have been acquired for very little.

If we are trading our best assets for guys like Happ, then I think I'd rather just hold on to Giles and Stroman (extensions), and see if we can contend from 2020-beyond. We don't know what the next CBA will look like, but extensions for vets prior to them hitting free agency are looking a lot more reasonable. Unless the Jays get blown away with offers (see what the Yankees got for Andrew Miller as a comparison), then I'm not sure trading them even helps us. So far I trust this team's drafting more than I do their trading. Jays will have no financial commitments aside from Grichuk from 2021. I think re-signing some actual good players on the team should be on the table at this point. I probably wouldn't have said that six months ago, but the trade market doesn't sound all that appealing anymore.

Gaviglio’s arm will fall off after this season, if not earlier.

Sign Stroman to an extension. I’m going to keep saying this until it happens. Don’t be spending $50 mil on Grichuk and not paying Stroman who we need a lot more and is much better.

Playing Biggio out of position because "who cares" is stupid as hell. You want to develop these players as best as possible. That means playing them at their best position, or developing them in the position you want them to be in long term. Vlad might not be a great defensive player but the club clearly does not want to move him to 1B yet so play him at third. If Biggio is a 2B long term, then play him there. If he has versatility to play elsewhere, then great, but don't play him everywhere just so Drury and Sogard could get playing time. That's a ridiculous waste of a rebuilding season. If anything, play Drury and Sogard out of position. They don't matter in the long run. Biggio does.

Agreed the Jays will get nothing for him in a trade. The market hates 1B/DH more than any other position right now. The best hope is if a contender wants to clean up its 40 man roster and gives up a Thornton type (back end SP type/multiple inning RP type).

Hopefully Biggio plays everyday. We really need his bat in the lineup. Vlad, Biggio, Jansen, Tellez (power might be realer than I thought)........we're getting closer. Bichette when he gets healthy is next. Would be nice if Alford didn't completely decline but I'm not expecting much there anymore.

Agreed completely with both these points. Jansen was a top prospect in baseball, had great minor league performance with good indicators for success (BB/K in particular), and is in his rookie season. You can be patient with players of that ilk. There's a pretty strong chance Jansen can become a good MLB starting catcher, if not a really good one. The others are just wishful thinking. Tellez with the power he has shown so far might be more interesting than I thought originally, but get out of here with McKinney, Teoscar, Drury, Gurriel, etc. Brian Cashman is the king of taking undervalued talent and helping them grow as players, and he moved Drury as quickly as he could once Andujar panned out. What makes anyone have more faith in the Jays helping him than the Yankees? I realize people want to play devil's advocate and be positive even in bad situations. I get it. I do that too some times. None of us want to hate on what the Jays are doing. But some times it looks like a duck, acts like a duck, etc.

One is considered a positive defensive player at a critical defensive position with a minor league track record of very good offensive performance (K/BB rate in particular) and was a top prospect in baseball as of the start of this season, while the other plays a s*** OF, has no base running value, and even in the minors was pulling off sub-.300 OBP's in AAA. I don't think it needs to be explained why Jansen would get more rope than McKinney. What you're basically saying is "this fringe guy has no redeeming qualities but it's only 150 plate appearances so it's too early". I mean, you can use that logic with anyone. Teoscar, McKinney, Brito, Hanson. Just as you did by bringing up McGuire and Ramirez earlier. Those guys do not project to be anything beyond bench players (McGuire moreso). Just because you can rattle off a bunch of names it doesn't mean any of those guys are good. That's where the disagreement comes from in this thread. Yeah, Atkins acquired a s*** ton of prospects in the past two years. How many of them are any good? Majors or Minors? Any top 100's? Anyone you can reasonably project to be a starting player on a playoff contender down the road? That's a pretty important distinction. If we are just stockpiling a bunch of back end 40 man roster depth, and throwing a party because we didn't give up much to get those players, that's not good.

Yeah seriously. I'll take Stroman on my team any day. He's fun to watch, passionate, and isn't afraid of the big moments. The good old boy mentality is the reason why no one gives a s*** about MLB in the mainstream. You are competing against the NBA and NFL. Give me a larger than life personality any day of the week over the Randal Grichuk's of the world who want to put their head down and bore the audience to tears.

Sure that's why I said as of now Atkins is not doing well. If suddenly the players he acquired take giant steps forward, then my opinion of him will change. I hope it does. Right now the only thing I have confidence in is the drafting and international signings.

Osuna trade was good especially considering the circumstances, plus Giles can be flipped for better prospects. Both Diaz deals were good. Grichuk deal was good but made worse by the unnecessary extension. However, the rest of the deals ranged from inconsequential to trash. I mean, yeah, for a s***** Liriano we got a better prospect than we probably should have, but that doesn’t mean it was a good prospect. Hernandez has been bad and he’s old for a prospect now. The Happ trade sucked from day 1. Solarte sucked (Olivares might be something better than filler). We got bodies for some expiring vets but nothing beyond depth pieces. Pillar was dumped and we somehow got the worse end of that because the players we got back suck and we don’t even have a CF to replace him (Grichuk is better off in right). Like I said maybe he hits a home run with Stroman and Giles (and Sanchez if he stays healthy), but if he doesn’t, then it’s just more bad to stack to the pile. I actually don’t mind acquiring fringe type prospects and giving them a chance to play but Atkins is like 0 for infinity in actually acquiring an undervalued player and having them improve. If anything Grichuk is the same dude he’s always been and that’s one of Atkins’ best moves. If Paulino becomes a good reliever, and Drury becomes a starting infielder, etc, then we can start talking. But so far there’s been no development, while the Yankees can pluck guys from the minors and watch them succeed. Jays need to be better.

I miss AA. Atkins and Montoyo have annoyed me so much this season that the GM I couldn't wait to see leave has now become someone I look back on fondly. Damn you Atkins.