KingKat

If you're telling me that Bautista should go the Halladay route and shut up publically while privately demanding a trade, no thanks.

Maybe he's under the mistaken impression that if he points it out, you'll stop.

From an outside perspective, it's true that even without Aviles, they didn't have to pursue Izturis and agree to the terms they did. There were options that weren't Izturis or Aviles. From an insider's perspective though, it's hard to know how confident AA would have been about landing another option. In any case, it's just weird to me that the team was keen to sign Izturis when Aviles had just landed on their lap through the Farrell exodus. I guess they just saw more value in having Rogers+Izturis than Aviles+Gomes and they were wrong about that. In any case, JaysFans4Life seemed to think that Aviles was obtained after the Izturis signing so at the very least, I thought it was worthwhile to post the actual timeline to clear up any possible confusion. Exactly, how the different moves influenced the thought process for subsequent moves is a discussion that would be impossible to settle but we know that the sum total was a poorly constructed roster.

That's an understatement. He wasn't good enough at SS to back up a guy like Reyes which was my larger point. This is the chronology of moves as announced on BlueJays.com: 10/21/12 Toronto Blue Jays traded RHP David Carpenter to Boston Red Sox for SS Mike Aviles. 11/03/12 Cleveland Indians traded RHP Esmil Rogers to Toronto Blue Jays for 3B Mike Aviles and C Yan Gomes. 11/08/12 Toronto Blue Jays signed free agent 3B Maicer Izturis Basically the Jays put themselves in a very poor bargaining position with Izturis by trading Aviles first. Now obviously they had to know when they traded Aviles that they probably would sign Izturis but they did so at the cost of a year no one else would give him. Not catastrophic or anything but it's still odd that that willingly put themselves in a position where they needed Izturis. They chose to do that. Meanwhile, there was a clear failure on the Jays part to recognize the defensive value and overall usefullness of versatile players like Gomes and Aviles who play premium positions well in addition to being versatile and conversely there was a clear over-estimation of the value and overall usefullness of a guy like Bonifacio who is versatile only in the sense that he plays several positions poorly. That's a pretty critical miscalculation to make when you're making a run at contention.

He couldn't play SS and neither could Bonifacio whereas Aviles could. A signing can look o.k. in isolation but really not work at all in the larger context (ending up without a backup SS).

I liked Izturis at the time as a kind of poor man's Scutaro and I probably supported the signing but, in hindsight, it seems pretty absurd for the Jays to have been so singularly focused on him and overpay him in years when there were other options including Aviles who was in their back pocket. It's funny how a bunch of seemingly innocuous moves can really add up and limit a team down the road.

Some of these guys seem to be out there every year.

Best overall poster: G-Snarls (CatsAss gets honourable mention for being the poster I'm most likely to think is G-Snarls) Hall of Fame: TheHurl, his charisma is how this whole community got started Funniest poster: NJH isn't the funniest per say but I like his sens of humour, Ang has all the counting stats in this category Best foreign poster: o2cui2i (Sweden counts right?) Best rookie/new poster: burlingtonbandit Comeback poster of the year: Ace3313 (thinking he was dead sucked). Honourable mention to Deadpool for coming back from a rather embarrassing meltdown) Best looking/Most attractive poster: BTS Best troll: FireAlexAnthopoulos (probably the board's truest troll) Best poster to get banned: NJH Best infrequent poster: RealMin Worst thread of the year: The consolidated deadline thread because for awhile it was just TwistedLogic complaining that there was a consolidated deadline thread Best thread: the Minor Leagues/Prospect is just a ridiculous fount of information Poster most likely to make a knee jerk reaction to something: four way tie between Boxy, ECJF, Gruber92 and TwistedLogic Poster I'd like to see return: Blurnandez (second year in a row)

The weird thing is that AA already had Aviles under control at that point at a smaller commitment. He basically engineered the situation that forced Aviles out by giving Izturis an extra year that he wouldn't get anywhere else and that inneficient signing prompted a very inneficient trade (two versatile part time players for one reliever). That whole off season was weird, AA just suddenly started acting like money doesn't matter.

So... you're saying that the Jays need a REAL 2B but maybe it's o.k. if they don't because they have Izturis?

They did the same thing with Kawasaki last year. It's roster management. Doesn't mean he won't be back. Doesn't mean the Jays will get a REAL 2B.

They're really nothing like each other.

I wonder if he really understands that or just has people who can summarize that sort of stuff for him. He seems like a hard working guy and a good person but he doesn't strike me as particularly bright. Even in the early days when he practically walked on water, he would say stuff that made you wonder whether he was dumbing stuff down or putting a spin on things rather than actually thinking the way he talked.

Has this ever, in the entire history of message boards, actually ended a thread?

That he was better than expected as a hitter is undeniable. That was clearly a gift from the gods for the Indians. That he was better than expected defensively is highly debatable though. Maybe he was better than the Blue Jays expected but there were reports at the time that the Indians wanted Gomes for his defense and that they felt he could stick as a major leaguer for that reason alone. They clearly saw something in him that justified giving him an opportunity that the Jays did not. The offense they got out of him was gravy.

Remember when AA came in and made all those new investments in scouting? Remember when the spin was that scouting was going to give the Jays an edge? Good times.

Less sure about Lind. I think AA's preference would be to trade Lind (and if the trade makes sense financially, there's no reason for anyone not to prefer that to just declining him). The real question will come up is if AA doesn't have a trade lined up early. Does he hold onto him and shop him more at the risk of keeping him if he doesn't get a deal he likes? I think the later is preferable than trying to find better value for the money on the FA market (which I'm convinced will NOT happen). Of course, there's also the possiblity that purses are pinched and that concerns about injuries are just a cover up for decisions that have been already made for financial reasons.

AA supporters do this all the time with Ervin Santana and Ian Kinsler.

Morrow to the Pirates.

If that happens or if Sabean doesn't panic and back out of the Lincecum trade, Ricciardi is a folk hero around these parts.

And if the Jays had made the playoffs that first year, the deal would have worked out. Sometimes you have to overpay in years to meet your immediate needs. I don't love the deal on paper but it's at least defensible in context.

http://static02.mediaite.com/themarysue/uploads/2014/08/Jway-facepalm.jpg

If I'm reading AA's comments about putting more emphasis on "health as a skill" correctly, Morrow is gone.

Gosh I hate the Super Two as a rule. I was surprised and dissapointed that they didn't address this in the CBA.

AA's achilles heel is his over-valuing of relievers. We didn't know that Gomes would cut it as a everyday player but given up two useful bench pieces for a reliever was an overpayment even knowing what we knew at the time. You can trace a lot of the Jays depth problems and poor roster decisions directly to that disaster of a trade.