Dick_Pole

Josh Johnson was the only one who fits that profile. Frank Thomas was 100 when he came here and Bonafacio and Izturis aren't big players, nor are any of the guys off the discount bin who were awarded the closer role before someone finally smartened up and just gave it to Janssen. Rasmus had a mix of good and bad but I can see the argument that he didn't live up to expectations though the investment on him wasn't high. Meanwhile guys like Rolen, Glaus, Burnett, BJ Ryan, Cabrera and Escobar all did rather well here while MB, Reyes and Dickey cost a lot but their performances have been ok. Then there's EE and Bautista who weren't big players when acquired but became them here. If anything, it's the homegrown talent that never amounts to anything or mysteriously hits the shitter.

On the topic of Lind....meh who cares now. With AA, you have to look at the big picture instead of dissecting every move or it will drive you crazy. Like with people who still bring up Napoli for Francisco when the big picture was getting Wells off the books without paying a penny of his salary. Lind out Gose out Lawrie out Donaldson in Travis in Martin in Under this scenario the offense is vastly improved, far less injury prone and more defensively versatile. Unquestionably better. If Lind was the move that AA had to do before starting the real work then so be it. Like taking that big dump in the morning before getting off to a productive work day.

Sorry dude, but your first sentence cracks me up. It's like something Homer Simpson would say to start off a debate. It's such an obvious observation if this were a face to face conversation it would catch me off-guard and cause me to hesitate to think how I'm going to respond to it. Yes...I admit it...I am less upset at AA and the 2B situation because of the competent moves he has made. The GM of the Toronto Blue Jays got off his ass and did a good job so I am less angry at him. "Almost worse" means not worse means it's better. You're really not putting out a very confident argument. I think you're just trying to be a Devil's Advocate or bring attention to 2B which I agree is a weakness, but not such an urgent one as it was a month ago.

I think this board is overstimulated. There's nothing wrong checking out Collapso as a depth move. But it's certainly not worthy of 40+ posts in less than two hours, much of them negative. This is a rumour barely worth noting, until AA comes out with a smile on his face saying the deal is done and 2B is solved for the season.

Because the only people who actually use Fangraphs are all on this message board?

No, I agree go after the 2B depth as you can. But the difference is now instead of: "AA GET A QUALITY MIF NOW YOU FAT PIECE OF s*** OR I WILL BURN YOU IN A CONCENTRATION CAMP" It's more like: "AA, please get a quality MIF. It would be nice to have but I won't burn your house down if you fail"

The chick I'm seeing right now is 37, four years older than me. Problem solved. Except she has the body of a former high jumper who has never been burdened with the process of child birth

It would be worth exploring in Spring Training, but most likely he's in the 9th spot. Why put so much pressure on him so soon? Besides he's essentially the leadoff hitter ahead of Reyes for every inning except the first one anyways. No real need to push down the proven bats one spot just for Reyes then Pompey versus Pompey then Reyes.

The top reason for my urgency over getting quality MIF was from Lawrie's injury risk. Based on how the team was constructed last year and what it would look like prior to the Travis trade we would have Goins, Izturis AND Kawasaki in the line-up at the same time in the not unlikely circumstance that Reyes and Lawrie are out of the lineup at the same time. Only Valencia was added to that mix so it was still a huge priority. Now that the Jays have a guy that can be reasonably expected to play 150+ games at 3B, that urgency drops. It drops further with every step forward Travis takes towards an MLB career. I would prefer that 2B has added depth, but at least I won't hammer my keyboard and pull my hair out if it doesn't happen.

They didn't give Lind away. One could even make an argument that it was a fair trade out of context. The problem is within the context they traded away an area of need (lefty hitting DH who can mash righties) for an area of surplus (back-end start/overpaid RP). Stupid trade, but hopefully there's follow up where Estrada is flipped for a useful piece for this team and things fall into place. I'd rather put Gomes and Aviles for a RP who could have been had off the waiver wire a few months prior as the #3 spot. But that might qualify as "stupid trade" rather than "stupid reason for trade"

Agreed. Jaysblue has a point based on past instances of this team, but AA has moved to rectify the situation either by choice or by force. Lawrie, Rasmus, Morrow and Santos are no longer expected contributors to this team. The Jays have had above average injury risk in the past, but I think they've at least worked on getting that down to average. Reyes and Bautista remain the top risks. Hutch came off strong off of surgery. I wouldn't consider him a significant injury threat. RAD and MB are the faces of anti-injury. EE is in a 1B/DH role. Happ's problems are with his back and freak injuries as opposed to shoulder/elbow/forearm. We all hope for the best but at least shouldn't have to fear for the worst like we have the past...oh...10 years or so.

Mighty Louse is still available!

The advantages that Billy Beane had since the turn of the century (and Friedman that past several years) are eroding since other teams are catching up to that philosophy, particularly on "team control". When you make your career taking advantage of one really good skill or philosophy but others catch on to that, now you have to rely on the rest of your qualifications to remain ahead of the pack. If those skills are mediocre, you make questionable decisions like what you brought up with Beane or the mess that is the TB Rays post-Friedman. Of course with Beane and Friedman, they also managed to "take the money" just in the nick of time. Another smart move. What they have done in the past year and do going forward may forever tarnish their reputations, but at least they can retire on their yachts should they so choose.

I think a lot of fans would be happy enough with just a f***ing playoff spot for once. Hopefully the division so we at least get to see three games. Like I said (maybe in another thread) I'm happy if the Jays can spend to get a FA pitcher. But it's a long shot and that means the only other route is through a trade and the only way the Jays are collecting an ace through that route is to pay out the ace in terms of their near-MLB ready prospects. In that instance, I'll take my chances with what the team has. In summary my preference is: 1. Sign a free agent starter 2. Leave the SP as is. 3. Mystery scenario 4. Mystery scenario 5. Mystery scenario 6. Mystery scenario 7. Mystery scenario 8. Mystery scenario 9. Trade prospects/young pitchers off the roster for an ace.

I think people are forgetting that Lawrie will be a free agent before Donaldson. If Lawrie stinks and is injured, A's lose the trade. If Lawrie performs at least half as good as Donaldson or better, it won't be long before he's shipped out too based on their philosophy so at least from a MLB roster perspective over the next three years, they still lose the trade. Although they would get a good haul out of Lawrie if they did trade him. Based on overall WAR or WAR per dollars spent the Jays are going to come out a mile ahead on this deal for the next four years unless Donaldson gets injured or mysteriously sucks. I guess that's the one thing Oakland has up on this trade. Any one of these four guys turns into garbage, they can still look to the other three to provide value.

The biggest improvement to the rotation was made behind the plate, and will be continued to be made on defense. RAD and MB - we know what the Jays will get from them 200-250 IP of decent pitching. I expect the biggest improvement from Hutch. The man had a K per inning over 185 IP last year coming off surgery. He could reach 200 K in 200+ IP this year with a lot better W-L and ERA based on last year's peripherals and this year's improved players supporting him. Happ is a pitcher in his 30's who improved his velocity last year and now has above average stuff for a lefty with inconsistent control, although his BB/9 was his career best last year. He's going into a contract year and has all the advantages of better pitch framing as the other guys will. People write him off as the #5 guy because of his age and relative lack of success in his career. But the age curve applies to averages not everybody. Maybe the line drive to the noggin knocked some sense into him or maybe he finally finished puberty but what I saw from him last year was the best pitching I've ever seen from him. Not that I'm an expert in Phillies/Astros games. But if there's a guy who I had to pick to have a mysterious career year at age 32 looking to cash in at free agency, he'd be my choice. Stroman would be the biggest wild card in all of this. He could be the best starter on this team (not an "ace" but the best starter on THIS team), or he could be mediocre or they limit his IP. If he does well and the rest of the pitchers perform to my expectations then this team could approach 1000 IP out of their starters. That would leave the RP underworked and dominant even without upgrades because the best way to get good relief pitching is to limit their innings pitched.

Not according to JP Arencibia

I've been one of the bigger proponents of MIF upgrades on this board for the last two years. But given the offensive upgrade and reduced injury risk involved with adding Donaldson and Martin I can at least live with the idea that scrubs will take over 2B out of the spring. My ideal scenario would be that the Jays get a legit MIF, Goins takes over Tolleson's role of late inning defense and is limited to 100-150 PA all year. The more useful of the two out of Izturis and Kawasaki stays to back up Reyes with the other guy DFA or MiLB depth and Tolleson gone. The lucky scenario out of that is that Travis turns into that legit 2B. The most likely scenario if no upgrades are found is that Izturis and Goins share the role and Travis comes on late in the year and the team wraps up Reyes in bubble wrap the entire season and hope he doesn't get hurt.

Holy s***, RA Dickey is a 40 yo southern US white guy on a team filled with latinos in their 20's and early 30's. He grew up pitchforking those type of people back over a barb-wired fence. Just because he's not dancing in a circle singing kumbaya to a raggaeton beat doesn't mean he's a clubhouse cancer. He's a guy who keeps to himself and his job is to give up a few gopher balls every 5 days and give us poor shmucks on this forum ulcers. And he does it well. Pitchers don't need to be high on team chemistry anyways.

The Jays biggest improvement to the pitching staff was already made behind the plate and are best served to continue to do so up the middle of the infield. I'm especially looking forward to improved numbers from Hutchison given this new team configuration. If the Jays have money to land one of the top FA pitchers then sure go ahead. If not, I'm not losing sleep over it. But I'd be very worried if they went through the trade route if AA is as determined for an ace as others are here. One thing with the Donaldson trade is that it gives up trading chip depth. It was an amazing move without giving up MLB roster depth but the Jays don't have the pieces to do that again. Barreto was the best low MiLB prospect this team had and Nolin was everyone's favourite add-on. Well he was added on now. The next Donaldson-like trade would pretty much have to include Osuna and one or two of Hutch, Stroman Norris or Sanchez as the starting point.

Hold on, maybe he gets traded again before the season starts! Donaldson could just be the magic piece AA needs to reacquire Rasmus

I've seen the argument that Beane is selling high on Donaldson. Well, the Jays aren't exactly selling low on Lawrie. Even when he's not injured there's signs there that he will never be beyond a league average bat. 2-3 WAR is his new reality assuming 140+ games. Less with injury risk but at least in Oakland he won't be banging into s*** as easily. The only way the Jays come out as losers is bad luck - Donaldson gets injured or goes out of his way to suck. Otherwise his profile over the next 4 years could out-WAR what Oakland got combined by as much as 20 imo.

BAAAAAAAAAHAHAAAAAAAAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA I go away for a couple weeks and the Jays get Martin and Donaldson??? Reminds me of the time I was away during the Jays 11-game winning streak in 2013. I am a bad luck charm. Anybody who doesn't like this trade is f***ing retarded. It's basically Lawrie and Barreto for Donaldson. Lawrie will end up missing half the season anyways. I read some dumbass comment that the Jays won this trade in 2015 but after that who knows? No The Jays won this trade in 2015 The Jays won this trade in 2016 The Jays won this trade in 2017 The Jays won this trade in 2018 Maybe in 2019 if/when Barreto becomes an impact player and Donaldson is either resigned or leaves as an FA this trade turns around. There's a very realistic chance that the Jays pick up 4-5 WAR per year on this trade for the next 4 years and after that, who really gives a s***. And that assumes that Donaldson hits 7-8 WAR as usual and somehow those guys going the other way have to pick up 3-4 starting next year.

Moogy, you have to stop pretending that you know things. Your long-winded arguments with big words might scare some people away from calling your bluffs. Not this time. I work for a competitor to Rogers for several years now, and judging from my salary, promotions and job performance reviews, I'm pretty damn good at it. I have seen many asinine, short-sighted and last-minute decisions made in order to hit a budget target over the years. They cross division lines. If one division is struggling, the others have to pick up the slack. A lot of it is also impacted by company turnover in the higher ranks. Somebody leaves or gets canned and their pet project dies with them and becomes "EBITDA improvement opportunities" for the next guy. The stock price to Jays' budget argument was a simplified one. It was meant to be as such because not everybody can be as smart as you think you are, nor can they spend a lot of time deep-diving into the reasons why the attitude of the Jays' brass suddenly changed once the calendar turned over to 2013. A lot of that could be blamed on performance. I'm sure 73-89 was not part of the 2013 forecast. But desperation on the part of Rogers' leadership to turn the ship around on net income and therefore the impact on stock price is another good reason. Perhaps the business case for spending on baseball players wasn't as good as projected two years ago.

Of course it is. And AA should have spent wisely. But like I said some idiot at Rogers probably forecasted rosy skies forever and said sure go ahead and spend with the promise of much more money to come. Just make it a winner as quickly as possible. Both ownership and the Jays brass are at fault equally, not one over the other imo.