jaysblue

Bet the Leafs tonight with the Braves!

Yeah same here deep down inside. One of the worst, if not the worst managed baseball game I witnessed.

At the end of the day, both Bass and Pop weren't really significant improvements down the stretch this season. At the trade deadline, you want your acquisitions to make a difference and both Bass & Pop didn't really have much of an impact. I still like the deal however and think long term Pop is definitely a nice guy to have around. Even Bass is great value on a 3M team option for 2023. I don't want him used as an 8th inning guy though. Mayza wasn't really that solid when you look at the advanced stats. Easy to upgrade over him. The Jays need another lefty like Brett Cecil or Scott Downs. Matt Moore IMO would be a perfect fit and a nice upgrade over Mayza. Either way Mayza is still an okay piece to keep around if he finds his 2021 form in 2023. It's important for the Jays starters to pitch deeper into games next year to keep the bullpen fresh. Gausman, Manoah and Berrios should be fine. Lets hope some arms at the back end of the rotation can provide some solid innings unlike White and Kikuchi. Even as much as I loved Strip, you can never rely on him going three times through an order. Always was given a quick hook.

Agree with everything you said. Gausman, Manoah, and Berrios are locked in the rotation for sure. I prefer having Kikuchi and White stretched out and keep them around for depth purposes if someone goes down with an injury. Same with Tiedemann. There are a lot of decent solid mid-rotation starters available via free agency, and like you said could probably be acquired on a one-year deal. As well, could always acquire a SP by trading Jansen. Though for sure, I think the Blue Jays need to acquire two starters. As for the bullpen, I've been saying this most of the season, they need one more elite late inning bullpen arm to pair with Romano. Some lotto tickets like Shelby Miller wouldn't hurt as well and I would move Pearson to the BP full time.

Since JS took over, the Jays went 46-28 good for a .622 W-L%. If the Jays made the ALDS and played some good baseball in the Postseason, without question he would be brought back. Game 2 of the Wildcard though really screwed him IMO, though not sure its enough to let him go. I'm sure the FO will see if any better options become available and if not, he likely is back in 2023 with a very short leash.

D'Backs will be a fun team to watch in 2023.

Took Kelly Oubre Jr

Bass since traded to the Jays: 25.2 innings, 9.82 K/9, 3.51 BB/9, 1.75 HR/9, 1.75 ERA, 4.63 FIP and -0.1 WAR He still had a very solid year overall, though he was far from being an elite shutdown reliever for the Jays over the final two months.

Yeah they were starters for a very short time. Frasor had some good years and some bad years here, was mixed. League was solid in 2006 and 2009, otherwise couldn't stay healthy and was a disappointment. Can't believe with the stuff he had, his K rate was pretty low and never amounted to much.

Roberto Osuna Aaron Sanchez (in 2015) Scott Downs (was one of the most consistent and reliable late inning relievers for the Jays) Casey Janssen Liam Hendriks Brett Cecil I would say those guys were pretty darn solid pitching in the 8th or 9th inning when they did for the Blue Jays.

Frasor and League were starters in the minors, no? Frasor started some games in the Dodgers organization I recall.

I'm talking about guys who were failed starters either in the minors or MLB level. Maybe some of those guys you listed started in the minors at some point, so forgive me that I never went back to check on those arms. Though yes, those arms you listed for sure provided quality innings out of the pen for at least one season. Completely forgot about Daniel Hudson. Great example right there, even if he was traded at the deadline after in 2019. Health was his major concern, though he was an elite bullpen arm when healthy. Romano I was listing under the Atkins era actually. He was a failed starter in the minors in the AA era, though Atkins and co. decided and worked with him on becoming a BP arm. So I give Atkins the credit on Romano.

Since we're talking about failed starters turning into relievers, I would seriously give someone like Matt Moore a look this offseason (10.09 K/9 and 1.1 WAR). His BB/9 is pretty high at 4.62 but if he improves on that, I think he can be a huge weapon out of a bullpen. As a reclamation project, would see if Matthew Boyd would consider pitching mainly out of the pen and would also take a flier on Shelby Miller. Kikuchi could also be intriguing, but you're paying him $16 million haha. Pearson and Merryweather hopefully can make the transition and be successful.

You summarized it perfectly. Atkins has built a solid foundation. I think most of us rational posters agree with that. He needs to take this 90-win team to the next level and turn it into a 100-win team that can go on a deep Postseason run, which yes can be the hardest part and something he hasn't had success with yet. 2023 is very important given its your last season with Teo and Chapman under contract, along with some veterans getting older and some of your younger talent will start becoming more expensive afterwards. I agree, it definitely involves more risk. Signing an elite BP arm like Edwin Diaz comes with way more risk than spending that money on someone else, though what does this team need? Everything else is pretty much in place from a foundation perspective in terms of the main pieces in the lineup and rotation. Some small moves and improvements will still have to be made such as improving the roster depth, though it's not like the Jays are a 70 win team trying to sign an elite BP arm.

Yeah majority of the time, spending millions and millions on several bullpen arms during an offseason doesn't work and backfires. Ideally, you hope the Jays could develop another elite arm or two out of the pen. Though given this teams window and lack of success up to this point, I don't think it hurts going out and spending money on a guy like Edwin Diaz as one of the final pieces to the puzzle to take this team to the next level. The Jays don't need to go out and sign like 4-5 bullpen arms and spend like close to $8-10 million each on them. Someone like Diaz complements this group very well. And you hope you get lucky with one of Pearson or Merryweather, the Blue Jays are in better shape after. The BJ Ryan contract didn't work out long term agreed, though lets say his 2006 season, which was freakin' amazing - imagine if the Jays 2022 roster had an arm like him down in the pen this season or even in 2021? Obviously not saying it's a guarantee the Jays win the World Series, though definitely gives them a better chance at going deeper into the Postseason where anything can happen after. If Diaz can fill that same role in 2023 as Ryan did with the Jays in 2006, I'm all for it. It makes sense when you have a team with a solid core already in place like the Blue Jays do.

I agree. Look at some of the Jays top relievers under JPR and AA regimes and even Atkins. Some of these guys were starters in the minors as well. Here are some names off the top of my head. If I forgot anyone, sorry. - Casey Janssen - Brett Cecil - Scott Downs - Jason Frasor - Jordan Romano - Liam Hendriks - Roberto Osuna - Marc Rzepczynski - Brandon League - Joe Biagini It is easier said than done, but most of those arms I listed are from the JPR and AA regimes. Not many successes under Atkins and company. Some of those arms you can develop from within the organization and you can also acquire/target those arms outside of an organization which is what we saw under the JPR and AA regimes. Ideally, would be nice if Pearson and Merryweather turn out to be bullpen successes and elite arms, which helps greatly. Though we're at a point now heading in 2023 where you can't just throw all your eggs in one basket and hope that Pearson is your bullpen saviour and answer. Hope they do a better job at targeting arms outside of their organization and also do a better job with arms within their organization.

Would be nice to see Ryu contribute at some point in 2023 if he came back healthy. Definitely is some nice SP depth to have after the All-Star break.

Tough to find a clean up guy like Harvey Keitel.

Yeah Vladdy needs to do a better job at not hitting the ball on the ground. Needs to elevate the ball more. Shocked Bo is that high to be honest. Hope they resolve this issue for next season.

Kikuchi would have struck him out!

They will find a way to even embarrass themselves more than the Blue Jays.

Clevinger is done IMO. Not the same pitcher he once was which is a shame.

Lmao what?

I just find some posters on here throw around excuses such as "bad luck," "randomness," and "it was a great deal at the time," way too often when someone criticizes this front office. Look, Atkins is a solid GM and has done a solid job during his tenure in Toronto. He's made some fantastic moves over the years such as bringing back JA Happ for the 2016 season, trading Liriano for Teo, buying low on Ray and Semien while also refraining from signing them to monster contracts, signed a top FA in George Springer, signed a top FA starter in Ryu (at the time), traded and extended for Berrios, signing Gausman and trading for Chapman last offseason. The team is coming off two 90 win seasons. They have a solid core in place. They need to add some final pieces to take this team to the next level however. There are some areas he could improve such as filling out the entire roster rather than leaving the bottom part pretty bare thin. We've seen that the past two seasons with the bench and the bullpen. Lastly, like MikeM said, this front office needs to do a better job at developing young arms in their system and targeting arms. Would make it much easier to sustain a stronger rotation and bullpen at the MLB level. So does Atkins deserved to be fired? I don't think so. I do think he's on thin ice for 2023 and if this team disappoints again by either failing to the make the Postseason or make a deep run in October, he's likely gone. Upgrades need to be made on this team, especially in the bullpen and roster depth. For posters saying everything is fine, they need to give their head a shake. If the Jays enter 2023 again with a mediocre pen, an OF like Tapia on the roster and no roster depth, you'll have the same outcome as in 2021 and 2022.