jaysblue

Yeah Ryu was cruising along, had a good pitch count and given the 8-2 lead, didn't hurt having him try for 6 innings.

Yeah and I wasn't a fan of AA when he did the Marlins deal, was one of his mistakes will admit that and call him out. I understand some of the logic - tough to lure big name FAs to Toronto at the time and the Marlins after going on a huge spending spree wanted to blow it up after a year. AA probably saw an opportunity. As well, its not like any of those prospects or players moved amounted to anything much. The organizational depth on this team right now is awful lol. Again its crazy how you're such an apologist for this front office. This should trigger you and your other homers: AA was a better GM and baseball mind during his time in Toronto than Atkins has been.

You write revisionist history all the time lmao when it comes to this team. Yes Atkins rushed to sign Morales to a 3-year deal/$33M early in the offseason because they were afraid of losing EE since his agent did turn down a deal. Sure can place some blame on EE's agent for the negotiations as well, but regardless should have been handled better by both sides. Who knows, maybe under AA they keep Edwin and other players are brought in to compliment the roster. We'll never know obviously. As for 2017, they still had a competitive window but like you said a lot went wrong. Was an aging roster, Tulo became broken, Bautista was done, Martin wasn't the same as in 2015 and 2016, a lot of injuries etc. Atkins still kept that window open before the season and didn't dismantle it, so it's not like they thought 2017 was going to be a lost year at the beginning. Unless you had a crystal ball, the team on paper still had a bit of a window in 2017. A lot went wrong during the season and yes then the writing was on the wall. Atkins should have traded Donaldson at the trade deadline in 2017 or at least the next offseason though didn't and lost out on getting better value.

You're avoiding the questions which is hilarious. You're saying AA traded for expensive FA contracts. What about Atkins using up $65M of the payroll for signed guys like Springer, Ryu and Bassitt for this season, who are all above 33. Blue Jays also have the 7th highest payroll in baseball right now. Pretty much the entire Jays rotation were free agents or were acquired via trade- Gausman, Bassitt, Kikuchi, Ryu, and Berrios who they traded and then extended. How much money is tied up to all of those arms? Manoah is really their only homegrown arm. How is the Jays farm system currently? It looks pretty bare to me so I don't understand how you can criticize AA for stripping down the Jays organizational depth while he was here, where you give Atkins a free pass. Unless Atkins pulls off some magic, things don't look that promising for the Jays after 2025.

I mean of course with experience, you become better at your craft and understand more than you did before. AA was still a great GM and baseball mind while he was here with the Jays. Yes he made some mistakes as every GM does, but it's shocking to see a lot of posters on here putting Atkins up higher than him. In terms of AA, you can argue a lot of what he did in Toronto in terms of contract extensions he's doing in Atlanta. It's not like he just discovered under the Dodgers lol. He signed Bautista and EE to team friendly contract extensions which doesn't get talked about enough. Similar to what he's doing in Atlanta now. On the trade front, AA has matured and probably has learned from his past mistakes in Toronto, will acknowledge that. We haven't seen him make a Marlins trade with the Braves.

Maybe in 2014 but there was no expanded WC format like there is today so would have been risky. Also, I know some core players like Bautista and others called out AA for not adding before the deadline to help the team, which I think definitely influenced AA to go big at the 2015 deadline when it came to upgrading the roster. A lot of trades made in 2015 definitely helped the Jays over the final two months. None of those Jays players and prospects traded didn't amount to much anyways afterwards, so it's not like those trades set the organization way back.

Did they really open up a short contention window? 2013 and 2014 didn't work out obviously but that's when AA decided to add to the roster. Who knows maybe in 2014 they add more at the trade deadline if they had the expanded WC format as they do now. You can count 2014 as a window if that's the case. No different than one of Atkins teams making the third WC spot or missing out by the Postseason by one game in 2021. As well, in 2015 and 2016 they had their window where they were legit World Series contenders. Who knows in 2017 if AA was still around what other moves he would have made to upgrade the roster. Atkins and Co. botched the EE negotiations that offseason and instead rushed to sign Morales which was a mistake. As well, once the 2017 season was a lost year and it became evident the window was probably closing, Atkins never traded Donaldson at the right time which definitely set the Jays back a bit in terms of adding to the farm system. Even under Atkins, the Jays have a short contention window. What happens to this team after 2025 when Bo leaves as a FA or Vladdy and many other core pieces? Do the Jays have the farm system to replace those guys?

Lmao why are you comparing AA with Ruben Amaro?

AA's teams came closer to a World Series than Atkins teams have during a period where it was tougher to make the Postseason. He put together a team in 2015 that actually looked like a World Series contender. AA made mistakes along the way. For sure he wasn't perfect here. Some of his trades didn't pan out, but it's not like the organization lost sleep after that huge Marlins trade before the 2013 season. Also, at the time many FAs didn't want to sign here, so the trading route was a way for the Jays to add big names. Where is the organizational depth of the Jays now by the way?

2 if you count 2016 since it was mostly AA's core in place. 2 trips to the ALCS, where the Jays were within striking distance of reaching the World Series for the first time since 1993. As well, making the Postseason in the old WC format which was more difficult than now. Maybe in 2014, the Jays add more at the deadline if it was the same WC format currently. AA brought the Jays closer to a World Series in a shorter time period more than Atkins has done in a longer period here. AA brought excitement back to Toronto with their Postseason runs, and that was integral after years of missing the Postseason. You could argue if it wasn't for AA, Blue Jays baseball wouldn't be as popular as it is today across the country! Atkins still has this season, 2024 and 2025, so he still has a window, though so far none of his teams have won a Postseason series (again not including the 2016 season), let alone a Postseason game.

108 K's in 56.1 innings. Crazy! Has a chance to reach 150 K's.

Yeah Cimber was definitely solid in 2021 and 2022 for us. Nothing against him at all. Just wasn't the type of high leverage arm this team needed at the time. Cimber is a nice 6th/7th inning guy, nothing more. Hand never worked out unfortunately. There were some warning signs of decline before the Jays acquired him, but yeah. That 2021 team was really good and it's a shame they never were able to play in the Postseason. Really think they could have done some damage.

Cimber wasn't an elite BP arm with huge K rates which is what they needed. He was and still is just a middle reliever. He's a nice piece, but nothing game changing. Also forgot to mention Brad Hand who cost the Jays how many games?

The 2021 team was probably the best window/opportunity to go on a deep run in the Postseason. Atkins failed to address the bullpen at the trade deadline, and it cost them by missing out by one game. Not sure if we'll see a better team in 2024 and 2025.

Lynn was pretty awful with the White Sox - 6.47 ERA and 5.21 FIP. Yes his K rate was solid but he wasn't an elite arm given the season he had to date. Dodgers just targeted him for innings and depth purposes. A team with a huge payroll can afford that luxury. You're only saying that now since Lynn has been lights out since joining the Dodgers. Keep in mind, Lynn's first three starts with the Dodgers were against Oakland, San Diego and Colorado. Far from elite lineups. Flaherty, who yeah I think is overrated, was a decent pickup for them - 1.8 fWAR, 9.10 K/9 and 4.12 FIP. So far with the Orioles, he's posted a 3.27 ERA and has 16 K's in 11 innings. Against two pretty good teams as well - the Blue Jays and the Astros. Astros could have used a Verlander more than anything.

He's given them innings - 145 IPs to date - which is valuable. He's ranked 6th in all of baseball, just behind Cole, Alcantara, Nola, Gallen and Webb. From looking at his game logs, when he's on he usually goes 6 or 7 innings, giving up 1 or 2 ER. When he has a off day, he still does give them 4-5 innings maybe giving up 4-5 ERs. Really his last start where he gave up 9 ER was his only blowup this season. 13 quality starts (hate using it as a stat) but he's up there in that category, tied with Castillo, Strider, Elder, Gilbert, and ahead of guys like Ohtani and Snell lol. Pretty much he's been a durable arm for them and eating up innings for them. He's been worth the $10M contract they signed him for.

Yeah I don't understand how his fWAR can be so high given his other numbers. His FIP is below 4 though. He has been durable and has given them 145 innings, which is 6th best in all of baseball. From looking at his game logs, he usually goes 6-7 innings on a good day, or he'll give up 4-5 ER in 4 to 5 innings. He's pretty much like Jekyll and Hyde. Otherwise his last start where he gave up 9 ER was really his only blowup this season. For the most part of his career, Gibson has been a 2-3 WAR pitcher.

I understand that. I'm not a Gibson fan either, but regardless they have got good value out of him to date and he hasn't been that bad as people on this board make him out to be. Sure he could implode as we saw with his last start and things could get ugly. Agree, Baltimore should have added a front line starter but who really was available outside of Verlander or Scherzer? Cease would have been nice but he hasn't been pitching like a front of the rotation starter and the White Sox didn't move him. During the offseason, all the front line starters like deGrom and Rodon have been injured for the most part, Verlander signed for crazy money, Eovaldi had some upside but came with risk. When you look back, there weren't many great options available to add a true No. 1 guy.

2 years/$24-25M would be reasonable for both sides. I don't want Merrifield getting in the 15M+ range per season given his age.

Yeah if the Jays can get Romano and Green back at 100%, along with Hicks, Mayza, Richards, Cabrera, should be good. Orioles have been working those guys hard so it's a matter of time they hit a wall. If they don't bounce back, could be trouble for them.

Innings and usage probably getting to them now, which is an advantage for us! If their pen can't keep pitching at an elite level, they will have a tough time in the Postseason.

I'll go with Kirk today

Wasn't Gomber pitching last night?

Their three big late inning bullpen arms have been really amazing. Like Bautista is on pace to finish with 3.0 WAR, Cano likely can come close to 2 WAR and Coulombe could get to 1.5 WAR. That's almost 7 WAR between those three pen arms alone. Who knows by time the Postseason rolls around if they run out of gas though, that would be ideal.

Gibson has a 2.3 WAR which is also tied with Berrios and ahead of Bassitt (1.4 WAR). According to WAR, he would be tied on the Jays as their second best pitcher. Orioles getting a lot from their bullpen obviously. Bautista has been worth 2.5 WAR, Cano has been worth 1.4 WAR and Coulombe 1.2 WAR. Crazy! Bradish at 1.9 WAR has been solid for them. Grayson looks like he's figured things out now as well.