John_Havok

And realizing that because you won your arb case you might earn far less than if you’d just accepted the teams offer and not gone to a hearing, you’d be guaranteed the whole amount even if cut while smashing the baseball. It’s like two kicks in the nuts rather than just one.

Especially since it was played in the Rays minor league home park and you’d think such an analytically inclined org would have that gear in their main complex stadium. Fluharty also has me intrigued as a possible lefty pen option down the road.

Side note, I’d love to see how a case where a player challenges this and asks how they can form the opinion that he fails to display “sufficient skill or competitive ability” when he’s tearing the cover off the ball on ST. It would be interesting to say the least.

It can because the full wording the contract says they can be terminated if the Player at any time ……. “Fails, in the opinion of the Club’s management, to exhibit sufficient skill or competitive ability to qualify or continue as a member of the Club’s team…”

Yeah, just google “ mlb uniform player contract” and you can find example from 2011 that has that language. The changes in the new CBA were all about the timing of when the player gets terminated using that clause and whether the player when to arb hearing or not

The “sufficient skill or competitive ability” language been in the uniform player contracts and CBA for a long time, you can find the same wording present in contracts going back decades.

It’s not quite that simple. The team can release him for whatever reason they choose to under the mlb uniform player contract, the issue of 30 days of termination pay or 45 days is based on the timing, and the fact that he went to arbitration for his contract vs agreeing to a contract amount without a hearing. How many guys get DFA towards the end of a season as clear cost cutting measures when their performance is still perfectly okay, and the team releasing them hopes they get claimed? It’s the same thing happening here, just in ST rather than the end of the season and termination pay is set up differently in this case under the new CBA

Not defensively. I don't think there's much doubt the IKF is the clearcut winner defensively at 3b. With the bat... could be right. Might we worth pointing out tho that IKF's career Z-contact rate is 93.9%, Clement's admitted small sample size career MLB Z-contact rate is 90.3. Clement could also just be IKF noodle bat that rides the babip roller coaster without the elite D.

A fair point made, however, the internal metric the Jays use (or any other team for that matter) will be using far more in depth peripherals, not just looking at velocity, swigning strikes, etc. If the Jays internal evaluation show that White deserves a shot at the 26 man roster before losing him for nothing (well cash or a nothing burger from some org who's stuck at AAA with okay-ish results but he's like 28 or something, never thrown substantial innings and probably just underwent surgery for the 3rd or 4th time... hypothetically), then past results aren't the driver. As fans we have 0 clue what the Jays internal metrics suggest. And you're right, results matter. All we can do is look at the pretty big turnaround in AAA in September of last year, see the much better results as well as the much better publicly available peripherals, combine that with the knowledge of having 0 options left and at least 1 rotation spot up for grabs, possibly 2 to start the season if Gausman isn't ready to go, and conclude that giving White one last shot (either rotation or long man) before jettisoning him is at least defensible. Upside? He actually doesn't suck, provided #5 value and maintains roster flexibility which is always needed. Downside? He sucks, they cut bait, and bring up the next guy to soak up the innings. Does the risk of 2 outweigh the possible benefits of scenario 1? Unfortunately, we as fans don't possess the actual numbers to form any informed opinion on which of those two scenarios is more likely, though the default position of scenario 2 is the one most would gravitate to given his previous results. It's the safest expectation given the lack of data the Jays have internally and totally understandable. But, the possibility of scenario 1 still exists. In a season where the Jays are clearly going to have to take some chances if they want to top the division, that's a dice roll they could make with no real downside.

I respect the POV, but how can he get positive results with the Jays if you aren't willing to give him that chance because of his previous poor results with the Jays? How long would he need to blow away AAA before you're willing to give him another chance on the major league roster even as the multi-inning guy out of the pen rather than a starter? As it stands now, he'd be claimed by someone if they tried to get him through waivers and all the Jays would end up with is cash probably.

The obligatory Joey Votto/Blue Jays story via The Athletic: The newest Toronto Blue Jay, Joey Votto, reports to spring camp Saturday and he believes his surgically repaired shoulder is healthy enough for him to contribute to his hometown team. “I feel excellent. I am pain-free. It is a joy,” Votto said to The Athletic in a text message Friday afternoon. “I think I can still bang.” Votto, 40, agreed to a minor-league contract with the Blue Jays on Friday. He said he will report to camp Saturday. Votto said he expects to start the season in the minor leagues and earn his way onto the big-league roster. “I am grateful that I am in tryout mode right now,” Votto wrote. “This reminds me of when I was 18, flying down to Sarasota, Florida, to showcase and develop my skills as a new Cincinnati Red.” The Reds drafted Votto out of Toronto’s Richview Collegiate Institute in the second round of the 2002 MLB draft. Votto debuted in 2007, won the National League Most Valuable Player in 2010 and amassed a Hall of Fame resume over parts of 17 seasons with the Reds. In November, the team declined a $20 million option on Votto’s 10-year, $225 million contract signed in 2012. He has never played for another team. Votto said “it appears” that there were major-league deals available to him, but he agreed to the deal with the Blue Jays on Friday. He said it was only “a few days ago” that he felt the deal could happen with the Blue Jays. Votto grew up in the suburbs of Toronto, going to games at Rogers Centre, then called the SkyDome. His dream as a kid was to play in the same uniform as Joe Carter, Roberto Alomar, and his father’s favorite player, Tony Fernández. While making the Blue Jays could be a fulfillment of that dream, it wasn’t his first choice. He said he wanted to return to the Reds. “Early in the offseason, I wanted to sign a similar non-roster deal with the Reds to finish my career in one uniform,” Votto wrote. “I recognize that is an odd objective, but I meant what I said about retiring if I am no longer a competitive player.” Votto was limited to 156 games over the past two seasons, dealing with a shoulder injury that required season-ending surgery in August of 2022. He began last season in the minor leagues but paused his rehab stint before making a return. Votto returned in June, hitting a home run in his first game. He had a two-homer game later that same week. He returned to action in August, again hitting a homer in his first game back, but it would be his last of the season. Over the past two seasons, he hit just .204/.317/.395 with 25 home runs and 79 RBIs over 618 plate appearances. Ejected after the first at-bat of what would be his final game for the Reds, Votto had said he wanted to continue to play if he felt he could be a productive player. But he also saw that playing time could be difficult with a young Reds team that surpassed all expectations in 2023, finishing with an 82-80 record. Rookie first baseman Christian Encarnacion-Strand hit 13 homers in 63 games with the big-league team last year. The emergence of Elly De La Cruz and Matt McLain in the middle of the team’s infield meant Jonathan India would likely be pushed off second base, with first base being the most likely option for the 2021 National League Rookie of the Year. Cincinnati also had Spencer Steer, who filled in at first before Votto’s return. In December, the team signed Jeimer Candelario, who plays both corner infield spots, for three years and $45 million, all but signaling the end of a place for Votto to fit in. That door opened slightly just hours after Votto’s agreement became public when rookie third baseman Noelvi Marte was suspended 80 games for violating the league’s performance-enhancing substance policy in violation of Major League Baseball’s Joint Drug Prevention and Treatment Program. Still, the writing was on the wall that the Reds had no place for a franchise icon. “The Reds team is STACKED and there didn’t appear to be playing time for me so we had to pivot,” Votto wrote. With the Blue Jays, Votto will compete alongside fellow non-roster invitee Daniel Vogelbach and prospect Spencer Horwitz for a left-handed bench role, though it’s difficult to imagine the Blue Jays bringing in Votto — a Canadian baseball icon — if they didn’t think they had a spot for him. If Votto was to make the team, however, it would likely be in a limited role — at least to start. Vladimir Guerrero Jr. is Toronto’s everyday first baseman and the Blue Jays signed Justin Turner to a one-year, $13 million deal to be their primary designated hitter. It’s difficult to gauge how many at-bats Votto would receive, though one way is using him as a pinch hitter against right-handers. He could also play occasional first base if Guerrero needs a day off, and Votto can DH, too. Of course, Blue Jays manager John Schneider often points out when speaking about playing time that performance matters, so it’s possible Votto could earn a bigger role if his bat warrants it. Beyond what he can bring to the field, Votto brings intangible benefits to the clubhouse. Lauded for the way he helped steer young players during his final years in Cincinnati, Votto could be a valuable veteran voice for a Blue Jays team aiming to take the next step competitively this season after back-to-back playoff disappointments in 2022 and 2023. “I have no expectations,” Votto wrote. “I want to be a useful member of the roster that can bring a championship back to Toronto.” While news of Votto’s signing was still unofficial, Schneider spoke to reporters in Dunedin about Votto’s “tremendous career.” “He has accolades that go on and on between his plate discipline, power and overall reputation as a competitor. That’s what he’s brought to teams he has played on,” Schneider told reporters including MLB.com’s Keegan Matheson. Not only did Votto say he expects to start the season in the minor leagues — the Blue Jays’ Triple-A team in Buffalo, N.Y., opens the season at home on March 29 — he said he wasn’t disappointed that he only signed a minor-league contract. “The opposite — I need the time to prepare and resharpen my game,” Votto wrote. “A goal of mine is to be fully prepared the second I return to major league competition. The major league level is about execution.”

Not just no Ks, no swinging strikes at all.

Yeah the only guy without options is White. Parsons has 1 option left, Francis has 1, Manoah has 2, Yariel has 1 contractually allowed option that had to be used this season if it's ever to be used.

Then I guess you and the dictionary have very different definitions of definitive.

Astro's GM Dana Brown via interview on MLB Network Radio today talking about exploring pen upgrades: “We are talking to clubs about trades,” Brown said, “I can’t get into that, but we definitely are having conversations about trades… we’re always looking at ways and avenues that we can get better, and if we can get better we’re going to make moves.” Who's got a deal for them and the Jays that makes sense?

I hold an irrational hope that some people can be educated out of ignorance, if they want to be.

I'm gonna write this date down. It's not everyday a sociopath admits an error. You are making progress.

Is it possible that he figured something out from the last time you saw him pitch in an MLB game... or no? Not saying he has, just asking if you think the possibility actually exists.

The skepticism on White i can certainly understand, but why skeptical on Kikuchi? He showed throughout the entirely of 2023 he was capable of making the needed adjustments and had a really good season. Also, If he goes with Tiedemann from the get go, he'll be done his innings cap by like, July most likely. Why not start with a guy like Francis who's already built up a ton more innings in 2023 and also looks capable of at least being a solid #5? Hopefully Gausman starts the season healthy and this will be a moot point but, hell we might even see 3 of Parsons, White, Francis and Tiedemann on the 26 man roster if he's not. Follow up, I'd rather they sign Montgomery over Snell at this point if they choose to go the route of signing another guy rather than going with internal options. Snell's penalties in the draft due to the Jays luxury tax spending would basically make this year's draft pointless.

Read it again. I'm talking about negatively judging Kikuchi (or other pitchers) for giving up a HR in ST. And if you think that doesn't happen, you're not reading the board very much during spring GDTs. Anyways, I'm not calling anyone out individually, just providing context as to why Kikuchi was throwing almost nothing but fastballs early in the game despite the bad results. You really see things in statements that aren't there... a lot.

I wont put too much into the HR today as a negative on Kikuchi. Kikuchi went into the game with the specific goal of focusing on finishing his delivery with the fastball which had been identified as an issue from his side sessions. He walked a few early on as he was still having issues and kept at it until he figured it out. Had it been a game scenario you know he wouldn't have thrown 3 straight in the same spot. The fact that he threw it exactly where he wanted to rather than losing it up and in, which had been his problem with the pitch to a LHB, or up and away to a RHB, was good. I mean, sure , credit to Holliday for mashing a mashable pitch, its what he should do. But in a regular season scenario 0-2, he would've got the slider or curve on the next pitch. And his next PA he struck out Holliday on three pitches and made him look silly. That first PA is probably the ideal representation as to why fans shouldn't overreact to stuff in ST, especially pitchers (Manoah notwithstanding - though his issues are decidedly different from what Kikuchi's are). This early on they're still working on specific things on specific pitches and not caring about perfect sequencing or results.

none of what he said are definitive roster determinations.

Regarding the opt-outs, there are 3 and they are mandatory for any minor league free agent signing for MLB veterans that have at least 6 full years of service time AND ended the previous season on a roster or injury list. AS long as they sign the minor league deal before there are 10 days left before opening day they can opt if they haven’t been added to the 40-man roster: five days before Opening Day, May 1 and June 1 Votto obviously falls into that category, Escobar would too. Vogelbach doesnt have 6 years of service time after last season, but 5 years 138 days.

Love the passion, but.... Molitor was signed at 36 and had just come off a 140 OPS+ season. He still had a ton in the tank that was easy to see. Winfield is a closer comparison as he was signed for his age 40 season, and had come off his worst season (by his standards) but had still produced a 120 OPS+ Neither had missed significant time due to injury in the preceding season, and in Votto's case its two straight seasons missing time. The deck is stacked firmly against him. I hope he turns back the clock too, just for the sake that it would help the Jays win. Would be a cool story too