ST GDT: Blue Jays vs Phillies - Tiedemann ST Debut - March 9th 1:05 PM EST

[max silver]

Why are people considering White a viable option? At what point had he shown at the MLB level he is? Just because we have a warm body who is stretched out as an SP doesn’t mean we have depth.

 

We have to assume Manoah is not starting the season. Take Tiedimen and make him 5th spot.

 

I see Bowden as only guy with a smidgen of success at the MLB level.

 

The other depth you are talking about have zero MLB innings or track record as far as I am aware and I believe Rodriguez is a pen guy is he not? Are they stretching him out when off IL?

 

The Blue Jays as a Team were waaaaay under average amount of SPs used due to the health and reliability of the big 4. The chances of us having that luck with the age group we have is not good.

 

I just see teams like the Reds who have Nick Martinez and there might not be a spot for him on the starting 5. Same goes for Detroit where if Gipson/Long wasn’t on the IL there wouldn’t be a spot for him. No spots for Faedo, Wentz or Brieske among others. Sanchez on Philly is not assured a 5th spot. Assad and or Wicks might not even get a 5th spot with the Cubs, Zerpa with KC, Vasquez is San Diego.. Just some examples.

 

Assuming Manoha is out I see Francis as the only MLB proven depth piece not in the rotation.

 

Pitcher A 161 innings 3.92 FIP

Pitcher B 36 innings 3.86 FIP

 

Put a mark on your bingo card if you guessed that pitcher A is Mitch White and pitcher B is Bowden Francis. How is Francis somehow more proven than White with nearly identical career FIP values but something like 20% of the total innings? Believe it or not White has had major league success in his career, we just haven't seen the best of him in a Blue Jays uniform. The 2022 ERA is inflated due to the spike in BABIP, but his batted balls metrics between the Dodgers and Blue Jays that season were essentially identical. He posted essentially the same FIP for both teams but had incredibly poor batted ball fortune as more hits fell in when in a Blue Jays uniform.

[Rimar]

If Manoah placed on injury list, should give opportunity to Tidermann. Ideally Atkins need sign Snell, even if Boras ask for options out after first year. I have 0 faith in White and Kiguchi. Amongst bench guys, only Clement and Barger should keep. Elvis, Tom Selleck, Pablo Escobar, Horwitz doesn't deserves to be in mlb.

[Carlos Danger]

Pitcher A 161 innings 3.92 FIP

Pitcher B 36 innings 3.86 FIP

 

Put a mark on your bingo card if you guessed that pitcher A is Mitch White and pitcher B is Bowden Francis. How is Francis somehow more proven than White with nearly identical career FIP values but something like 20% of the total innings? Believe it or not White has had major league success in his career, we just haven't seen the best of him in a Blue Jays uniform. The 2022 ERA is inflated due to the spike in BABIP, but his batted balls metrics between the Dodgers and Blue Jays that season were essentially identical. He posted essentially the same FIP for both teams but had incredibly poor batted ball fortune as more hits fell in when in a Blue Jays uniform.

 

Simple, Mitch White can’t throw fnn strikes and I watched the games. He sucked. I am not saying Francis is a super duper option either. Just saying he appears the most promising among anyone not named Tiedeman who is a mlb ready option.

 

Let’s face it, the Dodgers bent us over on the Mitch White trade.

[John_Havok]

If Manoah placed on injury list, should give opportunity to Tidermann. Ideally Atkins need sign Snell, even if Boras ask for options out after first year. I have 0 faith in White and Kiguchi. Amongst bench guys, only Clement and Barger should keep. Elvis, Tom Selleck, Pablo Escobar, Horwitz doesn't deserves to be in mlb.

 

The skepticism on White i can certainly understand, but why skeptical on Kikuchi? He showed throughout the entirely of 2023 he was capable of making the needed adjustments and had a really good season.

 

Also, If he goes with Tiedemann from the get go, he'll be done his innings cap by like, July most likely. Why not start with a guy like Francis who's already built up a ton more innings in 2023 and also looks capable of at least being a solid #5?

 

Hopefully Gausman starts the season healthy and this will be a moot point but, hell we might even see 3 of Parsons, White, Francis and Tiedemann on the 26 man roster if he's not.

 

Follow up, I'd rather they sign Montgomery over Snell at this point if they choose to go the route of signing another guy rather than going with internal options. Snell's penalties in the draft due to the Jays luxury tax spending would basically make this year's draft pointless.

[John_Havok]

Simple, Mitch White can’t throw fnn strikes and I watched the games. He sucked. I am not saying Francis is a super duper option either. Just saying he appears the most promising among anyone not named Tiedeman who is a mlb ready option.

 

Let’s face it, the Dodgers bent us over on the Mitch White trade.

 

Is it possible that he figured something out from the last time you saw him pitch in an MLB game... or no? Not saying he has, just asking if you think the possibility actually exists.

[Carlos Danger]

Is it possible that he figured something out from the last time you saw him pitch in an MLB game... or no? Not saying he has, just asking if you think the possibility actually exists.

 

Well, we kinda went through this a few times before, did we not? He was sent down to work on things, had AAA success, came up and sucked.

 

Since the trade, we have not seen any consistent fwd progress. I honestly don’t recall any fwd progress at the MLB level since August of 2022. I guess color me skeptical if after that amount of time there is some magic beans somewhere in the system to make that adjustment in the summer of 2024.

 

Point being- Maybe he will pitch like Cy Young in 2024. However, based on track record, I wouldn’t rely on him or consider him viable SP depth on March 10, 2024.

Edited March 11, 2024 by Carlos Danger

[Rimar]

Why I am worried about Kiguchi? For sure his 12.46 ERA so far in the spring training doesn't help, and he wasn't good in 2022. Last year, stats was good, but he only started 6 games.

[Spanky99]

The skepticism on White i can certainly understand, but why skeptical on Kikuchi? He showed throughout the entirely of 2023 he was capable of making the needed adjustments and had a really good season.

 

Also, If he goes with Tiedemann from the get go, he'll be done his innings cap by like, July most likely. Why not start with a guy like Francis who's already built up a ton more innings in 2023 and also looks capable of at least being a solid #5?

 

Hopefully Gausman starts the season healthy and this will be a moot point but, hell we might even see 3 of Parsons, White, Francis and Tiedemann on the 26 man roster if he's not.

 

Follow up, I'd rather they sign Montgomery over Snell at this point if they choose to go the route of signing another guy rather than going with internal options. Snell's penalties in the draft due to the Jays luxury tax spending would basically make this year's draft pointless.

 

Why do you respond to that kind of s***, lol?

[John_Havok]

Why do you respond to that kind of s***, lol?

 

I hold an irrational hope that some people can be educated out of ignorance, if they want to be.

[Spanky99]

Simple, Mitch White can’t throw fnn strikes and I watched the games. He sucked. I am not saying Francis is a super duper option either. Just saying he appears the most promising among anyone not named Tiedeman who is a mlb ready option.

 

Let’s face it, the Dodgers bent us over on the Mitch White trade.

 

lol... easy brother. We get it, home grown depth is thin, but the pitchers laid out by Laika is fine depth, not ideal but fine. LAD did not bend the Jays over on that trade.

[Spanky99]

I hold an irrational hope that some people can be educated out of ignorance, if they want to be.

lol

 

I get it, but it's just a troll account.

[connorp]

none of what he said are definitive roster determinations.

 

“Jays SP depth suddenly not so suspect”

 

That’s a definitive statement amigo

[John_Havok]

“Jays SP depth suddenly not so suspect”

 

That’s a definitive statement amigo

 

Then I guess you and the dictionary have very different definitions of definitive.

[Spanky99]

Nice to see Roden have a good ST, he's had a few loud outs as well from what I have seen, very nice seeing Kirky with the pop this spring, please El Capitan, we need you!

[connorp]

Then I guess you and the dictionary have very different definitions of definitive.

 

To not be definitive, there would need to be some sort of doubt in the statement. Like “may not be”

[Key22]

Simple, Mitch White can’t throw fnn strikes and I watched the games. He sucked. I am not saying Francis is a super duper option either. Just saying he appears the most promising among anyone not named Tiedeman who is a mlb ready option.

 

Let’s face it, the Dodgers bent us over on the Mitch White trade.

 

Yeah that's a tough trade to look at now - Frasso is ranked #2 in the Dodgers system and 80th overall.

 

Mitch White - is a --- body --- probably won't be a 'some' and more like a 'no' body.

 

The Dodgers generally don't screw up - they have the best front office talent and play money ball but with the most money. So when you engage in a trade with them - you are probably going to lose.

 

Indeed, I had the idea of trading Bo Bichette to the Dodgers who are unhappy with Gavin Lux at SS and who would like an upgrade and put Betts back to his main position.

 

My reasoning was that if the Jays stink ( a real good chance) and if Bo doesn't want to resign here - we could give the "win now" Dogers a package

 

To Dodgers:

Bo Bichette

Yimi Garcia

Tim Mayza

KK

Yusei Kikuchi

(Jays pick up the remaining salaries of Garcia, Mayza, Kikuchi, Garcia)

 

To Jays

Gavin Lux (SS/2B LF)

Dalton Rushing (#75 overall #1 in Dodgers system) C/1b

Andy Pages OF (#3 in Dodgers system)

River Ryan (RHP (#5 in Dodger's system)

Trey Sweeney SS (#22 in Dodger's system)

 

If the Jays are out of it by the break - it's time to sell and start considering a new batch of players with a new "core".

 

The problem is - trading with the Dodgers means we give them studs and we get middling players back.

 

If the Jays stink it up this year - apparently Cora will be looking for a new managing job. He is considered one of the elite managers so might be worth considering...

Edited March 11, 2024 by Key22

[Spanky99]

lol @that silliness.

[Laika]

Yeah that's a tough trade to look at now - Frasso is ranked #2 in the Dodgers system and 80th overall.

 

Mitch White - is a --- body --- probably won't be a 'some' and more like a 'no' body.

 

The Dodgers generally don't screw up - they have the best front office talent and play money ball but with the most money. So when you engage in a trade with them - you are probably going to lose.

 

Indeed, I had the idea of trading Bo Bichette to the Dodgers who are unhappy with Gavin Lux at SS and who would like an upgrade and put Betts back to his main position.

 

My reasoning was that if the Jays stink ( a real good chance) and if Bo doesn't want to resign here - we could give the "win now" Dogers a package

 

To Dodgers:

Bo Bichette

Yimi Garcia

Tim Mayza

KK

Yusei Kikuchi

(Jays pick up the remaining salaries of Garcia, Mayza, Kikuchi, Garcia)

 

To Jays

Gavin Lux (SS/2B LF)

Dalton Rushing (#75 overall #1 in Dodgers system) C/1b

Andy Pages OF (#3 in Dodgers system)

River Ryan (RHP (#5 in Dodger's system)

Trey Sweeney SS (#22 in Dodger's system)

 

If the Jays are out of it by the break - it's time to sell and start considering a new batch of players with a new "core".

 

The problem is - trading with the Dodgers means we give them studs and we get middling players back.

 

If the Jays stink it up this year - apparently Cora will be looking for a new managing job. He is considered one of the elite managers so might be worth considering...

 

Hey buddy

 

After those rankings, Nikki Frasso had shoulder surgery and hip labrum surgery

 

Yes, the soon to be 26 year old who has never thrown 100 innings and couldn't even stay healthy back in college is having more major surgery

 

Shocking, I know.

[Spanky99]

Hey buddy

 

After those rankings, Nikki Frasso had shoulder surgery and hip labrum surgery

 

Yes, the soon to be 26 year old who has never thrown 100 innings and couldn't even stay healthy back in college is having more major surgery

 

Shocking, I know.

 

CD still thinks we were bent over, for some reason. Meh...

[Carlos Danger]

Hey buddy

 

After those rankings, Nikki Frasso had shoulder surgery and hip labrum surgery

 

Yes, the soon to be 26 year old who has never thrown 100 innings and couldn't even stay healthy back in college is having more major surgery

 

Shocking, I know.

 

The 2024 MLB prospect Rankings that came out recently and have him #80, take into account that he will be out for the 2024 season.

 

If you look at projectability, without taking into account unpredictable injuries, one was on the upward arc the other is on the dark side of the moon.

[Laika]

The 2024 MLB prospect Rankings that came out recently and have him #80, take into account that he will be out for the 2024 season.

 

If you look at projectability, without taking into account unpredictable injuries, one was on the upward arc the other is on the dark side of the moon.

 

No they don't

 

They ranked him 80th end of January and the shoulder surgery news came out Feb 3rd. They don't update rankings yet.

 

Sorry to burst your bubble

[Carlos Danger]

No they don't

 

They ranked him 80th end of January and the shoulder surgery news came out Feb 3rd. They don't update rankings yet.

 

Sorry to burst your bubble

 

He emerged as Los Angeles' best pitching prospect in 2023 before tearing the labrum in his pitching shoulder and having surgery in November that will sideline him for all or most of this season.

[Laika]

He emerged as Los Angeles' best pitching prospect in 2023 before tearing the labrum in his pitching shoulder and having surgery in November that will sideline him for all or most of this season.

 

Yeah they added the note

 

Didn't adjust the rankings

 

Go check the mlbtr article breaking his shoulder surgery news, Detective Danger

[Spanky99]

Yeah they added the note

 

Didn't adjust the rankings

 

Go check the mlbtr article breaking his shoulder surgery news, Detective Danger

 

lol... he's going to drop like a brick in the very near future. He still likely has the upside to become a high leverage reliever if he comes back okay from that shoulder surgery.

[Laika]

lol... he's going to drop like a brick in the very near future. He still likely has the upside to become a high leverage reliever if he comes back okay from that shoulder surgery.

 

Juliaaaaan Merrryyyyyyweatherrrrrr

[Carlos Danger]

Yeah they added the note

 

Didn't adjust the rankings

 

Go check the mlbtr article breaking his shoulder surgery news, Detective Danger

 

This was a Dodger centric review by MLB Pipeline dated March 6th.

 

They have had plenty of opportunity to adjust.

 

Los Angeles has just two Top 100 Prospects, matching its lowest total in the last decade, and one of them (right-hander Nick Frasso) may miss this season following shoulder surgery. But the Dodgers do have a pair of outfielders with potent bats (Andy Pages, Josue De Paula), another wave of nearly-ready arms (River Ryan, Gavin Stone, Kyle Hurt) and plenty of young talent stacked up behind them. They also replenish their system by masterfully trading for prospects while contending, which is how they landed Frasso, Ryan and Hurt in the past and left-hander Jackson Ferris, outfielder Zyhir Hope and shortstops Trey Sweeney and Noah Miller this offseason.

 

MLB Pipeline | Top 100 prospects | Prospect video

Here’s a look at the Dodgers' top prospects:

1. Dalton Rushing, C/1B (MLB No. 75)

2. Nick Frasso, RHP (MLB No. 80)

3. Andy Pages, OF

4. Josue De Paula, OF

5. River Ryan, RHP

Complete Top 30 list »

[Laika]

This was a Dodger centric review by MLB Pipeline dated March 6th.

 

They have had plenty of opportunity to adjust.

 

Los Angeles has just two Top 100 Prospects, matching its lowest total in the last decade, and one of them (right-hander Nick Frasso) may miss this season following shoulder surgery. But the Dodgers do have a pair of outfielders with potent bats (Andy Pages, Josue De Paula), another wave of nearly-ready arms (River Ryan, Gavin Stone, Kyle Hurt) and plenty of young talent stacked up behind them. They also replenish their system by masterfully trading for prospects while contending, which is how they landed Frasso, Ryan and Hurt in the past and left-hander Jackson Ferris, outfielder Zyhir Hope and shortstops Trey Sweeney and Noah Miller this offseason.

 

MLB Pipeline | Top 100 prospects | Prospect video

Here’s a look at the Dodgers' top prospects:

1. Dalton Rushing, C/1B (MLB No. 75)

2. Nick Frasso, RHP (MLB No. 80)

3. Andy Pages, OF

4. Josue De Paula, OF

5. River Ryan, RHP

Complete Top 30 list »

 

They don't adjust rankings at this point in the year

 

I'm sorry this happened to you

 

He's like 10th at best in the Dodgers system now

[Carlos Danger]

They don't adjust rankings at this point in the year

 

I'm sorry this happened to you

 

He's like 10th at best in the Dodgers system now

 

I would agree that I think Ryan and Hurt should be above him at this point among others.

 

Regardless if Frasso is 80 or 150, barring some come back player of the year s*** for White, I still think the Dodgers got the better end of the stick.

[Laika]

I would agree that I think Ryan and Hurt should be above him at this point among others.

 

Regardless if Frasso is 80 or 150, barring some come back player of the year s*** for White, I still think the Dodgers got the better end of the stick.

 

Sure but let's not pretend he's anything more than he is

 

Which is something like... a closer prospect or very low probability 100 IP "starter"

 

I don't even know how someone could rank him top 150 with his health track record. Kid will be nearly 27 when he pitches again and has had TJS, shoulder labrum surgery, and hip labrum surgery. He has never stayed healthy at any level of baseball. He threw 93 innings this year and it nearly killed him.

 

Has anyone ever come back from that collection of surgeries?

[Spanky99]

Juliaaaaan Merrryyyyyyweatherrrrrr

 

Yes, very much like him, good comp. lol