2024 Hall of Fame

[Laika]

Russell Martin went to the playoffs in like 10/14 seasons, across four different organizations, that's so impressive

 

BUT I suppose he's just an fWAR pop up candidate. His bWAR isn't there, and his stats are light based on any traditional measurement.

 

Put him in the Hall of Frame I suppose.

 

 

McCann is in exactly the same situation. When framing was "discovered" the good catchers had this moment in time where half the league didn't care about it so on a peer-relative measurement they were putting up +3 and +4 win values per season based on framing alone. It was real and fair but it was also kind of like playing 1 on 1 with a toddler. I mean, they were framing against Ryan Doumit...

[wamco]

I think McCann and Martin hang on the ballot at least 5 years but prob peak at a max of 60 pct imo

[Dick_Pole]

I’ll never understand the supposed logic of “Deserves to be in Cooperstown, but not on the first ballot IMO”

 

Unless youÂ’re just trying to predict how other people will vote with the idiotic 10 player limits

 

Pretty clear to me why. There's an upper tier of HOFer and lower tiers, especially as the HOF got watered down with a player like Harold Baines. You might not agree with somebody's reason for voting or not voting someone in, but you should be able to understand the logic behind it. Griffey? Maddux? Randy Johnson? Definitely yes. Todd Helton....ehhhh yeah maybe but let's make him wait a few years first. As punishment for not being as good as those other guys.

 

For instance, if I was voting, I would not have voted for Jeter. Knowing that he's a definite lock and absurdly popular and I don't want to contribute to the 99.9% yes total that should be reserved for the best of the best who made a mockery of the 100 WAR line.

 

Ultimately none of this stuff matters or should matter. But it kind of does.

[Laika]

Yeah there is of course a hierarchy within the Hall of Fame

 

The First Ballot dudes probably have their own text group

 

They probably don't invite all of the 9th and 10th ballot losers to some of the more exclusive and fun parties

 

The Veterans Committee elections are kind of just participation trophy holders

[Dick_Pole]

Back when he signed that Mariners deal, were they using WAR? He also came off like a 48 HR season with the Dodgers, so yeah never came even close to those numbers with the Mariners. Those were probably the expectations of fans and the sports media. A lot of emphasis was still placed on traditional offensive statistics like BA, HR and RBI totals across baseball amongst writers and in the sports media. As well, don't think much emphasis was placed on defensive abilities as it is today when it comes to contracts and determining how really valuable a player is.

 

Not sure how old you are but I think there is a bit of revisionist history when it comes to this thought that defense wasn't as emphasized. Defense wasn't as easily quantified and there were mistakes on how to properly evaluate defense. But it was definitely valued. Ray Schalk wouldn't be in the HOF if it wasn't.

 

Look at how pathetic the 80's were with small ball and bunting and such. You don't get to that point unless defense plays a very big role in the sport. If anything, it's the turn of the century where defense was abandoned in favour of dingers at every possible position. And now that I write this out, I'm almost talking myself into agreeing with your point because that was right around the time when Beltre was in Seattle lol.

 

So I guess my point of contention isn't that defense was "once less valued" but that at that specific time defense was valued less than it may have been in the 1980's or today. It ebbs and flows in baseball as opposed to it being less prioritized until Statcast came along.

[Omar]

Congratulations to all the inductees. But did any of us watching Mauer play think that this guy is a HOFamer? Besides his anemic power how much did he actually play as a catcher? Yeah if he was a career catcher give him his due, but playing a below average first base and DH for almost half his career doesn't do it for me. I guess Russell Martin chances for HOF just went up.

[Dick_Pole]

Low scoring environments = defense valued more.

Higher scoring environments = defense valued less.

 

I guess one day when Manfred is replaced by someone with balls and we see pitching roster limits so teams can't game the system rostering forty 98 mile an hour jobbers throughout the year and 10-8 games become the norm again, defense first players will be habitually undervalued even with Statcast and computer nerd defense stats available.

[Laika]

Congratulations to all the inductees. But did any of us watching Mauer play think that this guy is a HOFamer? Besides his anemic power how much did he actually play as a catcher? Yeah if he was a career catcher give him his due, but playing a below average first base and DH for almost half his career doesn't do it for me. I guess Russell Martin chances for HOF just went up.

 

What he did from 2014 until the end of his career probably didn't help his HOF case even a tiny bit.

 

He accrued almost no WAR as a primary 1B, he didn't get over any important milestones during that time, he had 4 of the worst season batting averages of his career.

 

I guess the voters are just saying that his career through age 30 was good enough to make it.

 

And I do think he really looked like a hall of famer most of that time. Dude was a pure hitter. He hit .319/.401 in that time period. The only other .300/.400 hitters qualified from 2004 to 2014 are Helton, Bonds, Manny, Pujols, Votto, Miggy. Kind of nuts for a viable catcher (during this time) to be on that list with pure 1B/DH sluggers.

[Dick_Pole]

Congratulations to all the inductees. But did any of us watching Mauer play think that this guy is a HOFamer? Besides his anemic power how much did he actually play as a catcher? Yeah if he was a career catcher give him his due, but playing a below average first base and DH for almost half his career doesn't do it for me. I guess Russell Martin chances for HOF just went up.

 

Mauer is definitely a guy who comes across as "hmm I thought he did more than that" when you actually look at his career. Some guys are just blessed by being memorable. Even though he was in a small market.

 

Give the Twins some credit. They have three team-exclusive Hall of Famers in Puckett, Oliva and Mauer. By HOF standards, all three definitely rank in the bottom half, maybe even bottom 10% of all HOFers. That really challenges the narrative around players being underappreciated in small markets. Like, if these three guys spent their entire careers with the Yankees, would they even sniff the Hall of Fame? Pretty sure Bernie Williams knows the answer to that. Don Mattingly can back him up.

 

They made the best of being big fish in small ponds. And now Canadians have to go re-think why their narrative "Halladay/Stieb/Delgado/Player X was underappreciated cuz Toronto ain't New York" clearly doesn't apply to the Twins.

[wamco]

Pretty clear to me why. There's an upper tier of HOFer and lower tiers, especially as the HOF got watered down with a player like Harold Baines. You might not agree with somebody's reason for voting or not voting someone in, but you should be able to understand the logic behind it. Griffey? Maddux? Randy Johnson? Definitely yes. Todd Helton....ehhhh yeah maybe but let's make him wait a few years first. As punishment for not being as good as those other guys.

 

For instance, if I was voting, I would not have voted for Jeter. Knowing that he's a definite lock and absurdly popular and I don't want to contribute to the 99.9% yes total that should be reserved for the best of the best who made a mockery of the 100 WAR line.

 

Ultimately none of this stuff matters or should matter. But it kind of does.

 

But if all felt this way, guys that should get in will not get the 5 pct to stay on the ballot.

[BigCecil]

Beltre was a great player. Worthy. I'll never forget the look on his face when good ol' Elvis dropped the throw from him on a wheel play in 2015 Gm 5 vs TEX.

 

Gibby had Goins SB. He bunted it right to Beltre who was charging the plate. DOA at 3B except...oops.

[wamco]

More evidence of Elvis throwing that game than shoeless joe

[BigCecil]

More evidence of Elvis throwing that game than shoeless joe

 

In fairness to him Morelands throw was ass lol

[wamco]

Ya but still.

 

(See how that completely nullifies your argument?)

[Terminator]

Mauer is definitely a guy who comes across as "hmm I thought he did more than that" when you actually look at his career. Some guys are just blessed by being memorable. Even though he was in a small market.

 

Give the Twins some credit. They have three team-exclusive Hall of Famers in Puckett, Oliva and Mauer. By HOF standards, all three definitely rank in the bottom half, maybe even bottom 10% of all HOFers. That really challenges the narrative around players being underappreciated in small markets. Like, if these three guys spent their entire careers with the Yankees, would they even sniff the Hall of Fame? Pretty sure Bernie Williams knows the answer to that. Don Mattingly can back him up.

 

They made the best of being big fish in small ponds. And now Canadians have to go re-think why their narrative "Halladay/Stieb/Delgado/Player X was underappreciated cuz Toronto ain't New York" clearly doesn't apply to the Twins.

 

It is interesting to see how little WAR the Twins HoF crew accumulated. Fernandez, Delgado and Stieb are comparable players. Puckett's career at least was cut a little short but Oliva just flat out stinks. Has to be one of the worst HoFers. No glove and no base running hitter with 220 career homers. If his career BA is .298 instead of .304 he probably doesn't get in.

[Laika]

It is interesting to see how little WAR the Twins HoF crew accumulated. Fernandez, Delgado and Stieb are comparable players. Puckett's career at least was cut a little short but Oliva just flat out stinks. Has to be one of the worst HoFers. No glove and no base running hitter with 220 career homers. If his career BA is .298 instead of .304 he probably doesn't get in.

 

He won three batting titles. People in his era creamed their pants to s*** like that.

 

If Luis Arraez was born in 1940 he'd be a legend.

[Terminator]

He won three batting titles. People in his era creamed their pants to s*** like that.

 

If Luis Arraez was born in 1940 he'd be a legend.

 

Ok it makes complete sense then. I didn't look at the individual accolades just the overall numbers and saw his BA was high.

[wamco]

Puckett also choked his wife with a phone cord. Not sure if he ever punched her butt though.

[wamco]

Who you put in your hall of fame ballot?

 

Helton

Will Clark

Delgado

[TheHurl]

Manfred is replaced by someone with balls.

 

He has balls...different ones for every game depending on the results they want

[G-Snarls]

[Spanky99]

lol

[Brownie19]

Sabathia, Ichiro, Wagner elected to Hall of Fame

https://thescore.com/mlb/news/3196650

Andruw Jones and Beltran are close.  

Now much love for King Felix and no love at all for David Wright or either Russel Martin or Brian McCann - just 2 of the very best to ever play the position.

[Terminator]

2 hours ago, Brownie19 said:

Sabathia, Ichiro, Wagner elected to Hall of Fame

https://thescore.com/mlb/news/3196650

Andruw Jones and Beltran are close.  

Now much love for King Felix and no love at all for David Wright or either Russel Martin or Brian McCann - just 2 of the very best to ever play the position.

Beltran and Jones probably get in.

King Felix was high enough I think he might have a chance in Year 10?

[jaysblue]

On 1/21/2025 at 11:06 PM, Terminator said:

Beltran and Jones probably get in.

King Felix was high enough I think he might have a chance in Year 10?

Felix was so dominant in his early 20's and then fell apart once he hit 30. Imagine if he aged like Verlander or Scherzer, he likely would be close to 80-90 WAR. 

I remember in 2009, was sitting behind the Mariners dugout. Saw Felix pop out and was looking around at the crowd between innings. I started chanting "Cy Young, Cy Young" and he tossed me a ball haha. 

[jaysblue]

On 1/21/2025 at 8:22 PM, Brownie19 said:

Sabathia, Ichiro, Wagner elected to Hall of Fame

https://thescore.com/mlb/news/3196650

Andruw Jones and Beltran are close.  

Now much love for King Felix and no love at all for David Wright or either Russel Martin or Brian McCann - just 2 of the very best to ever play the position.

Beltran and Jones should get in. Both have a career 67 WAR and were impactful ball players during their respective periods.

I don't think Wright gets in despite almost having the same career WAR as Mauer. 

As for Martin and McCann, hope both get in and don't have to wait around long. Shame that Mauer gets in on first ballot, though both Martin/McCann likely have to wait almost a decade to get in possibly. 

[Spanky99]

2 hours ago, jaysblue said:

As for Martin and McCann, hope both get in and don't have to wait around long. Shame that Mauer gets in on first ballot, though both Martin/McCann likely have to wait almost a decade to get in possibly. 

They didn't get 5%, no longer eligible, kind of disgraceful to me. Voters are dingleberries.