General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2024)

[burlingtonbandit]

Is making the playoffs 3 times in the last 4 years (while missing the 1 year by 1 win) impressive? Yes, I think it is. I've been a Jays fan since 92/93 and have watched them miss the playoffs in 24 of 26 seasons, prior to this recent run from 2020-2023. You can undersell the wild card all you want, but you just need to get in. Honest question - do people downplay the wild card teams in the NFL? I don't think they do like some dismiss it here.

 

Technicality, but the team has been to the playoffs 4 times under Atkins (you're forgetting 2016) and nobody in their right mind expected them to compete in 2017-2019 given the team they inherited. The f***ing guy is 1-2 wins away from making the playoffs in every single season you could reasonably expect them to - yet people want him fired. It's a joke.

 

I also think it's unfair to discount 2020 - it's not like Ross has any control over that. The team made it, end of story.

 

Well in the NFL its all about playoff success, no one remembers how you got into the playoffs but they sure as hell remember how many playoff games you win. Which in the Jays case I don't think helps with the point you are trying to make lol. Also I would say it would be impressive if the Jays were running a 125M payroll and making the playoffs year after year. But they are projected for like 85 wins this year with a 230M payroll and still holes on the roster, that I don't find impressive...

 

Wasn't the team actually projected to be decent in 2017? I can't really remember but obviously the team was terrible, but I though preseason expectations weren't that bad. I'm of the opinion with the Blue Jays collaborative FO approach and process their moves wouldn't chance much with Atkins at the helm or someone else. He's terrible with the media (you think he would improve in this regard with 7 years experience) and there's been breakdowns of communication between Front office and coaching staff and FO and players.

[itaos]

If the Jays are out of it by the deadline, can you see them trading Vlad if he is putting up strong numbers?

 

They should field offers unless they were content with the outcome of the Donaldson situation

[Brownie19]

Well in the NFL its all about playoff success, no one remembers how you got into the playoffs but they sure as hell remember how many playoff games you win. Which in the Jays case I don't think helps with the point you are trying to make lol. Also I would say it would be impressive if the Jays were running a 125M payroll and making the playoffs year after year. But they are projected for like 85 wins this year with a 230M payroll and still holes on the roster, that I don't find impressive...

 

Wasn't the team actually projected to be decent in 2017? I can't really remember but obviously the team was terrible, but I though preseason expectations weren't that bad. I'm of the opinion with the Blue Jays collaborative FO approach and process their moves wouldn't chance much with Atkins at the helm or someone else. He's terrible with the media (you think he would improve in this regard with 7 years experience) and there's been breakdowns of communication between Front office and coaching staff and FO and players.

 

Personally - I don't give 1 f*** how he handles the media. The media is full of f***ing losers - pure scumbags. I'd actually prefer my GM to treat them like s***. I don't buy the narrative they handled the Manoah or Bass situation poorly. Bass is a loser - nobody wants him. Manoah has some issues.

 

Lots of teams spend $200M+ and don't sniff the playoffs. It's 2024 - $200M is the new $100M

[Brownie19]

They should field offers unless they were content with the outcome of the Donaldson situation

 

You're expecting Vlad to be injured throughout the 2025 season, which will cater his trade value? That's an odd expectation.

[burlingtonbandit]

Personally - I don't give 1 f*** how he handles the media. The media is full of f***ing losers - pure scumbags. I'd actually prefer my GM to treat them like s***. I don't buy the narrative they handled the Manoah or Bass situation poorly. Bass is a loser - nobody wants him. Manoah has some issues.

 

Lots of teams spend $200M+ and don't sniff the playoffs. It's 2024 - $200M is the new $100M

 

I mean more in the sense he comes off as a loser when speaking with the media, like comes off as fake to fans through the media. If a GM says f*** off to Rosie whatever her name is or Steve Simmons I don't think anyone gives a s***. When he throws his manager under the bus to deflect blame for himself, thats not a real leader.

 

In 2022 5/6 teams who spent 200M made the postseason. In 2023 4/7 missed the postseason with 2 of those teams having terrible FO in Padres and Angels. The others being the Yankees and cursed Mets lol.

[Jimcanuck]

If the Jays are out of it by the deadline, can you see them trading Vlad if he is putting up strong numbers?

 

Absolutely. If they are out of it, with their top talent having a good season, it's time to retool.

[itaos]

You're expecting Vlad to be injured throughout the 2025 season, which will cater his trade value? That's an odd expectation.

 

If they have a good idea they won't resign Vlad or Bo I don't want to turn away an overpay offer to avoid a down year in ticket sales, which I believe was the reason given for keeping Donaldson. I expect Atkins to keep them and make a run in 2025 but would not mind some prospects for a quicker retooling in 2026.

[MikeM3]

Guy's gonna make like 25m minimum next year in arb. We might non tender him lol

[John_Havok]

2 consecutive seasons of regression should hold some weight in arbitration. His salary was already jumping regardless it didn't need to jump to 19.9.

 

Just not a fan of the process. 2021 should not set his value when 22 and 23 he didn't even resemble that player.

 

Yeah i get that. Its just if you look at totality he's still provided massive value on his arb years so for me it's hard to get mad that he's getting paid this year when he put up MVP numbers for 600K in 2021. Whatever the $ per WAR numbers are at, he's already provided 10 WAR for about 23.5 million in salary

 

Alonso really is the best comparable, and hes put up 14.5 for 23.3 million. Alonso has been more consistent for sure, counting stats are 192/498/402 in terms of HR/RBI/RUNS for Pete and 130/404/377 for Vlad. PAs are within 100 of each other so that's a wash. Awards favour Vlad with Hank Aaron, Silver Slugger, Gold Glove, All MLB 1st Team, 2nd in MVP voting and 2 AS games including AS MVP. Alonso has ROY, 3 All-Star Games.

 

If anything, Alonso and his agent left piles on the table when he got to arb the first times, which is now costing him even more piles now.

[Stangstag]

Won't get fooled again....

 

Yeah that guy’s credibility is 100% shot now

[Stangstag]

Well in the NFL its all about playoff success, no one remembers how you got into the playoffs but they sure as hell remember how many playoff games you win. Which in the Jays case I don't think helps with the point you are trying to make lol. Also I would say it would be impressive if the Jays were running a 125M payroll and making the playoffs year after year. But they are projected for like 85 wins this year with a 230M payroll and still holes on the roster, that I don't find impressive...

 

Wasn't the team actually projected to be decent in 2017? I can't really remember but obviously the team was terrible, but I though preseason expectations weren't that bad. I'm of the opinion with the Blue Jays collaborative FO approach and process their moves wouldn't chance much with Atkins at the helm or someone else. He's terrible with the media (you think he would improve in this regard with 7 years experience) and there's been breakdowns of communication between Front office and coaching staff and FO and players.

 

This isn’t the NFL lol what does that have to do with anything

[burlingtonbandit]

This isn’t the NFL lol what does that have to do with anything

 

I was responding to a comment he made where he said in the NFL no one remembers if you made the playoffs as a wildcard or by winning the division, when I said in the NFL it’s ALL about playoff success.

 

I still say winning the division matters even if it’s just marginal % points higher for winning a World Series on paper. For one you get the first round bye if you finish top 2 and plus it is nice to see division banners inside the stadium.

[Spanky99]

k….

 

Hey pusso, how many wins for the Jays this year?

[Spanky99]

Who's AveryChenier?

 

Nobody.

 

lol... yup. Avery Chenier, da fuq? Fools.

[Spanky99]

I think Atkins and Shapiro haven't been terrible, but they haven't been great either. Reality is in Baseball you used to have to be elite to make the playoffs. Now you just have to be good. So I dont blame them for taking the less aggressive approach and trying for sustained success. However for the payroll and expectations that were set up for the Vlad/Bo era, just being perennial wildcard contender isn't satisfying. Satisfying Rogers, probably. Fans not really. It doesn't help their case that they claimed they would build some great farm system and we are currently positioned in the bottom 3rd. It also doesn't help that these guys replaced AA who has gone on to become one of the best GM's in the MLB.

 

All true, AA wasn't great here either, now Gillick, that man is legend.

[Spanky99]

 

Offseason might not be loss folks. If we can just add 1 big bat to squeeze in between Bo and Vlad, we are cooking.

 

That would be great, so how many wins for the Jays this year as is?

 

PECOTA deserves that gif of the cat typing on the keyboard

 

That's for you, bro... the C-poop gif

[connorp]

Yeah Orioles were one of those perfect storm teams last year that managed to comeback from almost every defecit and win a bunch of games by 1 run. That doesn’t normally happen 2 years in a row, especially after losing a guy like Bautista. Even Cano regressed in a big way near the end of the season.

 

Sure they added Burnes, who is great. But overall their rotation is still hot garbage. Grayson is a wildcard as much as Manoah is. Kimbrel kinda sucks. Their lineup is solid but im not as certain as others that Holliday will come up and light things up. They’re kinda due for one of their big prospects to fail.

 

Grayson is as much of a wildcard as Manoah is. lol. They say my takes are bad.

[Spanky99]

If the Jays are out of it by the deadline, can you see them trading Vlad if he is putting up strong numbers?

 

They'd have to be way out of it at the deadline, but yes, anything is possible.

[connorp]

This isn’t the NFL lol what does that have to do with anything

 

Man, 2 stinkers in a row and I wasn’t even looking for it:)

Doesn’t what sport, when you go deep in the playoffs, nobody cares what seed you were. If you go to the WS as a WC, then it’s widely considered a better season than if you won the division and lost 1st round of playoffs. That’s the universal reality outside of nerds.

[deanmike]

 

Term, I would love to hear your Kool Aid spin on this specifically as you are the biggest fan of Cody Bellinger on the planet.

[Spanky99]

 

Term, I would love to hear your Kool Aid spin on this specifically as you are the biggest fan of Cody Bellinger on the planet.

 

What exactly are you spiking on Term?

[Brownie19]

Man, 2 stinkers in a row and I wasn’t even looking for it:)

Doesn’t what sport, when you go deep in the playoffs, nobody cares what seed you were. If you go to the WS as a WC, then it’s widely considered a better season than if you won the division and lost 1st round of playoffs. That’s the universal reality outside of nerds.

 

This is true - but playoff success is like playing roulette. The probability of winning most games is near 50% - a coin flip. You bet on red or black. Even in the most lopsided matchups, the favored team typically only has a 60% chance. Judging a GM based on those results is stupid - yet everyone does it.

[deanmike]

What exactly are you spiking on Term?

 

Wasn't talking to u Spankmeister666

[connorp]

This is true - but playoff success is like playing roulette. The probability of winning most games is near 50% - a coin flip. You bet on red or black. Even in the most lopsided matchups, the favored team typically only has a 60% chance. Judging a GM based on those results is stupid - yet everyone does it.

 

In the Jays case, each regular season has been a disappointment compared to the expectations. So whatever you think of the playoffs and the Jays not winning a single game the last 4 years, is kind of moot

[Brownie19]

I was responding to a comment he made where he said in the NFL no one remembers if you made the playoffs as a wildcard or by winning the division, when I said in the NFL it’s ALL about playoff success.

 

I still say winning the division matters even if it’s just marginal % points higher for winning a World Series on paper. For one you get the first round bye if you finish top 2 and plus it is nice to see division banners inside the stadium.

 

In every sport - it's all about playoff success. Division banners are pointless - highly doubtful the Braves, Dodgers and O's sat back and said "well at least we have a new banner" after getting smoked in the playoffs. My point was your downplaying teams that make the MLB WC series, like it's a useless accomplishment. I don't think you hear that as much in the NFL. It's just a bunch of coin flips once you're in.

[Brownie19]

In the Jays case, each regular season has been a disappointment compared to the expectations. So whatever you think of the playoffs and the Jays not winning a single game the last 4 years, is kind of moot

 

Only a disappointment based on playoff success. If we win a few coin flips, your perception changes.

[Laika]

Only a disappointment based on playoff success. If we win a few coin flips, your perception changes.

 

I don't think that is completely true

 

Last year the regular season was a disappointing experience start to finish. Yes, a playoff run would have turned the whole thing around but it wasn't like the team was fun to watch and exciting and they just happened to lose in R1.

 

2022 was a similar experience, just not as bad. Berrios and Kikuchi were nightmares every fifth day. Vlad treaded water, Gurriel did nothing but punch singles, Tapia got 400+ PA, it was a hit or miss regular season.

 

2021 might have been the best fan experience start to finish. Vlad beasted, Ray won the Cy Young. They didn't even make the playoffs but in 2022 and 2023 they might as well have not made the playoffs, haha.

 

2020 was the Covid year so any baseball was gravy. I would say it was fun because there were no expectations.

 

So I agree with Connor Pee Pee. Each season has been a disappointment to some extent because the front office has failed to put together a complete team that clicks on all cylinders at any point. It just hasn't happened. At best they have looked like a B contender.

 

Not disappointing would mean serious division contention, or least a couple of months in there where they look like an elite team.

[deanmike]

Honestly the 2022 team was more disappointing to me than the 2023 team. The disappointment for last year's team was just amplified because the casuals hated how "boring to watch" a pitching+defense team which struggled offensively was.

[Spanky99]

Wasn't talking to u Spankmeister666

 

Okay.

[Laika]

Honestly the 2022 team was more disappointing to me than the 2023 team. The disappointment for last year's team was just amplified because the casuals hated how "boring to watch" a pitching+defense team which struggled offensively was.

 

Yeah, maybe

 

2023 was also extra frustrating because the ballpark changes were kind of expected to usher in this new era of fan experience but a lot of that was overshadowed by this creeping idea that the outfield fence changes were ruining the offense

 

2024 should be better as far as the ballpark changes and visuals go. It should be really cool to see the lower bowl renovated. And the reduction in foul territory might have a notable impact on offense - nobody is talking about this but unlike the outfield changes (which were unpredictable) there is only one way this can go, and it is to increase offense, it's just a question of how much. It should be particularly beneficial for any player that is decent at fouling off pitching, which does actually apply to the big boys. Kirk and Espinal have high contact rates, obviously Vlad and Bo foul off a decent amount with their hit tools... more chances to do damage... I feel like Varsho popped out a lot last year in foul territory...

 

On the pitching side it might only have a significant detrimental effect on Bassitt, who is more of a tricky / reliant on weak contact SP. Rest of them are whiff chasers, and Gausman and Kikuchi are good at it. Berrios not sure. I am ignoring Manoah.