Bo or Vlad?

[Jonn]

If they can’t agree to an extension with Bo this off-season they need to move him for a haul. They can’t afford to have a set back of losing him for nothing. The Atkins era has been absolutely terrible for holding onto players for to long and getting nothing in return. Not trading Donaldson earlier still pisses me off.

 

Vlad isn’t even in this conversation. He isn’t even worth $100 million.

 

Make extension I would give him is like 4 years 80m.

[Buster]

This is a really interesting discussion from fans that are far more knowledgeable than I am.

[John_Havok]

This is a really interesting discussion from fans that are far more knowledgeable than I am.

 

Who would you feel more confortable hitching your wagon to if you had to pick one? and why?

[JaysFan99]

Vlad doesn't even hit tanks anymore. He has less dingers than certain platoon players, catchers, and 44 year old Andy McCutcheen.

 

It's kind of embarrassing.

 

Keep hitting the ball directly at the biggest part of the ballpark you f***ing idiot. Then get thrown out at 2nd as often as you can!

 

2 months into the season and Kevin Pillar has more home runs at Rogers Centre than Vlady does.

[BigCecil]

The org is not now, and will not be in the future, ruthless enough to let both of these guys walk. It would be a marketing disaster. Thanks to Shatkins, there is no one in the pipeline to replace them on the bobblehead roster, with the possible exception of RT. If someone is going to overpay - and someone will - it will be the BJs.

 

No disrespect but I don't agree with the take that its a marketing disaster.

 

It depends on if they will sign or not, and what the term/AAV is and what they get back if they leave.

 

Jays fans will move on depending on the team's results just like we did from the 15/16 stars. Signings can be a sugar high. Devers, for example, has had a slow start for him on a new $300M deal. It won't be long before the BoSox fans turn on the FO and player if he doesn't pull out of it. I think he will over a 10 year deal, but its rough now. SDP and the Mets have spent a fortune on signings and so far are sucking.

 

The FO has to make really tough decisions at times, with short term pain that produces longer term gain.

[John_Havok]

No disrespect but I don't agree with the take that its a marketing disaster.

 

It depends on if they will sign or not, and what the term/AAV is and what they get back if they leave.

 

Jays fans will move on depending on the team's results just like we did from the 15/16 stars. Signings can be a sugar high. Devers, for example, has had a slow start for him on a new $300M deal. It won't be long before the BoSox fans turn on the FO and player if he doesn't pull out of it. I think he will over a 10 year deal, but its rough now. SDP and the Mets have spent a fortune on signings and so far are sucking.

 

The FO has to make really tough decisions at times, with short term pain that produces longer term gain.

 

No doubt. the Bautista “ no home town discount” decision to let him walk was the best decision made in the past 10 seasons probably regarding letting a guy walk.

 

Thing is…Bo is probably the better bet to be great and remain great-ish over a long term deal. Vlad isn’t. Vlad definitely has more marketing presence and sway in Toronto and across Canada vs Bo for reasons that really don’t matter, but rightly or wrongly could certainly be taken into account by a front office on deciding who to sign.

 

It be monumentally stupid to do that instead of going after the guy who’s going more likely to help your team win, but…FOs do have to take that into account at least somewhat in their decision making process.

[goldbug103]

No doubt. the Bautista “ no home town discount” decision to let him walk was the best decision made in the past 10 seasons probably regarding letting a guy walk.

 

Thing is…Bo is probably the better bet to be great and remain great-ish over a long term deal. Vlad isn’t. Vlad definitely has more marketing presence and sway in Toronto and across Canada vs Bo for reasons that really don’t matter, but rightly or wrongly could certainly be taken into account by a front office on deciding who to sign.

 

It be monumentally stupid to do that instead of going after the guy who’s going more likely to help your team win, but…FOs do have to take that into account at least somewhat in their decision making process.

 

No they shouldn’t. Would you like to be handcuffed by a 300 M fatty that can’t hit HRs at home or on the road for that matter. Rowdy Tellez has a higher OPS than Vlad. You do what’s best for the team based on results, not marketing gimmickry.

[G-Snarls]

Recency bias rampant. Vlad in '21 people were musing putting a "4" as the first number.

 

Bo for most of '22 was a 100 wRC+ league avg bat and is still a bottom 1/3 SS in '23. What will people say if the reverse happens this yr and his 2nd half blows? Dont get me wrong. Bat to ball skills elite. Ability to inside out the ball. Hit to all fields. Power. Its pretty cool.

 

Neither are going to sign any deal without testing the FA market without an overpay, which I would oppose. These are both rich kids set for life regardless and they want to know what the market will pay.

 

If they were into a long term deal it needs to reflect the value reality and risk sharing - the Franco/Riley ish deals make sense to me.

 

No matter how you stretch out the term to lower AAV and NPV of the funds, it still affect future flexibility and decisions.

 

To me, Vlad is an elite talent. Bat speed. Stunning EVs. Youth. But he has had one elite year with an * beside it. Yandy Diaz is out producing the s*** out of him for $8M. Vlad has been hyped so much. Think about MLB putting him in the All Star game in the home run contest with no track record. His career WAR is not that interesting.

 

My prediction is they both sign elsewhere or are elsewhere before 2026. Just sayin'

 

I've completely flipped

 

1-2 years ago I was all for Vladdy 4 ever

 

Now it would hurt the team more to lose Bo, even though I think Vladdy has some more 2021 type seasons ahead

[spats]

Remember that Bo has Vladdy hitting behind him. Vladdy has Varsho.Who is going to get the better pitches to hit?

[max silver]

Remember that Bo has Vladdy hitting behind him. Vladdy has Varsho.Who is going to get the better pitches to hit?

 

Vlad is his own worst enemy right now with piss poor pitch selection. Lack of protection behind him isn't forcing him to wave weakly at pitches out of the strike zone, that's all on him. And on top of that Vlad isn't doing anything with the hittable pitches that he is receiving right now, that's not due to lack of protection either.

[G-Snarls]

Remember that Bo has Vladdy hitting behind him. Vladdy has Varsho.Who is going to get the better pitches to hit?

 

Vladdy gets plenty of good pitches to hit and does NOT make the most of them

[G-Snarls]

Vlad is his own worst enemy right now with piss poor pitch selection. Lack of protection behind him isn't forcing him to wave weakly at pitches out of the strike zone, that's all on him. And on top of that Vlad isn't doing anything with the hittable pitches that he is receiving right now, that's not due to lack of protection either.

 

But hopefully the Varsho bro hugs help him get it going

[BigCecil]

Vladdy gets plenty of good pitches to hit and does NOT make the most of them

 

Weird his chase rate is up about 6%. But his contact on chase swings is way up from 2021. Seems like he would better off whiffing on the chase swings instead of making contact.

[G-Snarls]

Weird his chase rate is up about 6%. But his contact on chase swings is way up from 2021. Seems like he would better off whiffing on the chase swings instead of making contact.

 

Exactly

 

Putting too many bad pitches in play and making outs too often on them

 

This came up last week comparing Vladdy and Aaron Judge's approaches and results during the Yankees series

[Spanky99]

It really depends on value of the extension, with recency bias it's obvious the poll is skewed towards Bo, though he's one of the best in MLB ATM. While Vlad is playing himself into an Olson type contract, might not be out of the realm they sign both, but who knows. Will be interesting, no doubt.

[JaysAllMighty]

When Vlad gets hot again redo this poll

[BigCecil]

It really depends on value of the extension, with recency bias it's obvious the poll is skewed towards Bo, though he's one of the best in MLB ATM. While Vlad is playing himself into an Olson type contract, might not be out of the realm they sign both, but who knows. Will be interesting, no doubt.

 

Honestly, this simple take ^ is reality.

 

If Bo's 2nd half looks more like his 1st two-thirds of 2022, take the poll again. If Vlad goes on an extended heater same.

 

It always comes down to below:

 

1. Will one or both sign or do they want to hit the FA market to sell to the highest bidder?

 

2. If they want to extend, whats the term/AAV and is it reasonable value/risk for both parties?

 

I hope the FO does whats best for the team long term and not too influenced by immediacy pressures. They are still under control until '26. I've always felt their long term security financially being assured, given the family and now personal wealth, is a factor. Hell, Bo's arb deal is better than Albies extension deal.

 

Some were yelling to extend Manoah last year given Strider deal etc. Given how he has looked in '23 so far, I'm glad they didn't.

[BigCecil]

Exactly

 

Putting too many bad pitches in play and making outs too often on them

 

This came up last week comparing Vladdy and Aaron Judge's approaches and results during the Yankees series

 

I missed that. Thx. Was just having a little layman look at all the numbers yesterday on savant trying to solve the mystery that is Vlad-ito right now lol

[TheHurl]

It really depends on value of the extension, with recency bias it's obvious the poll is skewed towards Bo, though he's one of the best in MLB ATM. While Vlad is playing himself into an Olson type contract, might not be out of the realm they sign both, but who knows. Will be interesting, no doubt.

 

I thought he wrote $300M extension.

[Spanky99]

Honestly, this simple take ^ is reality.

 

If Bo's 2nd half looks more like his 1st two-thirds of 2022, take the poll again. If Vlad goes on an extended heater same.

 

It always comes down to below:

 

1. Will one or both sign or do they want to hit the FA market to sell to the highest bidder?

 

2. If they want to extend, whats the term/AAV and is it reasonable value/risk for both parties?

 

I hope the FO does whats best for the team long term and not too influenced by immediacy pressures. They are still under control until '26. I've always felt their long term security financially being assured, given the family and now personal wealth, is a factor. Hell, Bo's arb deal is better than Albies extension deal.

 

Some were yelling to extend Manoah last year given Strider deal etc. Given how he has looked in '23 so far, I'm glad they didn't.

 

Tricky game those extensions, that's why people smarter than me get the big bucks. It'll be interesting how this pans out.

[Spanky99]

I thought he wrote $300M extension.

 

Oh, yes he did, my bad. My point still stands though. Bo's looking at Tatis money.

[JaysAllMighty]

Oh, yes he did, my bad. My point still stands though. Bo's looking at Tatis money.

 

Bo won't be loyal to the Jays like Vladdy will be. It will be all about the money for Bo like he indicated in the past.

[Sorrow]

I've been saying Bo is the Jays best player for a number of years and I stick by that. I know between here and reddit this winter I was saying I'd hesitate to sign Vlad to a long term deal but wouldn't hesitate with Bichette.

[Spanky99]

Bo won't be loyal to the Jays like Vladdy will be. It will be all about the money for Bo like he indicated in the past.

 

That's why I said he'll be looking at Tatis money, man.

[wilko]

That's why I said he'll be looking at Tatis money, man.

 

Sr. or Jr.?

[Daniel Labude]

If I'm giving someone 300M...its the player with the higher career wRC+ and a gold glove

 

[Spanky99]

If I'm giving someone 300M...its the player with the higher career wRC+ and a gold glove

 

 

This guy... ^^^^

 

[BigCecil]

Bo won't be loyal to the Jays like Vladdy will be. It will be all about the money for Bo like he indicated in the past.

 

This is all about Agents, value, markets and money. Its just business. It has very little, if nothing at all, to do with loyalty.

 

Even Vlad's comment about never signing with NYY I take with a grain of salt. If he did ever sign with them he would not be the first star player to reverse course on a pronouncement like that.

[BigCecil]

Oh, yes he did, my bad. My point still stands though. Bo's looking at Tatis money.

 

I can't wrap my head around $300+ M for Bo. I know he rakes. I don't care much what SDP does to blow their own brains out on.

 

Its not totally apples to apples given service time/sample, but if you look at the Wander Franco signing at the time where the 2 players were at, Rays paid 11/185 (option tacked on) for a switch hitter who is 2 years younger. This year Wander has been worth more WAR than Bo.

 

Given Wander's D numbers are > Bo, its fair to suggest there is a higher probability he can play longer at a premium position, which you pay extra for. Bo is 28 when the 2026 season begins in year 1 as a FA. I think you have to factor in that you are paying, in Bo, for a guy that you know has to move to 2B before too long into the deal.

[John_Havok]

I can't wrap my head around $300+ M for Bo. I know he rakes. I don't care much what SDP does to blow their own brains out on.

 

Its not totally apples to apples given service time/sample, but if you look at the Wander Franco signing at the time where the 2 players were at, Rays paid 11/185 (option tacked on) for a switch hitter who is 2 years younger. This year Wander has been worth more WAR than Bo.

 

Given Wander's D numbers are > Bo, its fair to suggest there is a higher probability he can play longer at a premium position, which you pay extra for. Bo is 28 when the 2026 season begins in year 1 as a FA. I think you have to factor in that you are paying, in Bo, for a guy that you know has to move to 2B before too long into the deal.

 

it's also not apples to apples because they offered Wander that extension when he had less than 1 year of service time. There is no way in hell Bo would have signed anything like that IMO