Former Blue Jays Thread

[glory]

4 hours ago, hanton said:

Gabriel Moreno

2023 post season press conferenced Mark Shapiro when asked about the trade

"..you can't evaluate a trade in the short term you gotta give it 4 or 5 years.."

 

We know the trade was trash but does anyone still think it was even a necessary trade?

The Jays had 3 catchers and Kirk was coming off a 4 WAR/129 wRC+ season at age 23. The only alternative was to move Moreno to 2B/3B. I honestly wouldn't have been against it, as the Jays signed KK that year anyway, so they didn't really need a CF for 2023 and could have just put Moreno at 2B and ran with it, but whether that was the best use of the catcher surplus would have been highly debatable. Varsho was probably the wrong guy to get in return. It was the ultimate buy high and they didn't even play him in CF for half of his remaining years of control. 

[John_Havok]

On 9/24/2026 at 7:14 AM, AMS528 said:

Gabriel Moreno lived up to that best prospect in baseball billing this year. Managed to put together everything including health. 

5.2 fWAR. Underlying hitting stats were good. Defense was good. Still just 26 as well. 

Kirk is just as good though. Well, like...90% as good. He's also just 1 year older.

Kirk is the better defender, but not by much. 

Moreno is the better offensive player, but not by much though the margin is wider than the defensive edge of Kirk.

Of course I'd rather have Moreno now with hindsight given the body comparisons as Moreno will probably age better, but... the trade was perfectly legit in its thought process.  Deal from strength where you already have a keystone and get someone back where to make a team wekaness better. 

Yep, Varsho didnt put in the best 4 years and that sucks. But the process of the trade is easily defensible.

[hanton]

6 hours ago, Brownie19 said:

He's literally in the 100% percentile in blocking...

15% above average hitter who's one of the best in baseball in blocking and framing.  

He's one of the very best catchers in baseball.

I know, I started posting about his receiving skills way back in 2023 (when I joined the site).

irrelevant, should have moved Moreno to 3b.  How are Dodgers able to handle having Will Smith and Rushing?

[Brownie19]

15 hours ago, hanton said:

I know, I started posting about his receiving skills way back in 2023 (when I joined the site).

irrelevant, should have moved Moreno to 3b.  How are Dodgers able to handle having Will Smith and Rushing?

Because they have the money to buy anyone they need to fill other holes?

[max silver]

15 hours ago, hanton said:

I know, I started posting about his receiving skills way back in 2023 (when I joined the site).

irrelevant, should have moved Moreno to 3b.  How are Dodgers able to handle having Will Smith and Rushing?

The Blue Jays employed Matt Chapman at third base at the time when Moreno first came up so they didn't have an open spot for Moreno. The front office also wanted to keep Chapman long term as well although they weren't able to agree on terms for an extension or contract in free agency as it appeared as though Chapman wasn't interested in staying long term.

[Spanky__99]

C'mon man, lets be better... lol

Such a front.

 

[Sorrow]

When it comes to Moreno the Jays tried to shop Jansen and Kirk as well but teams only wanted Moreno.

Jansen at the time was one of the best hitting catchers in baseball and Kirk had a markedly better minor league stat line and wasn’t as much of a work in progress defensively.

Yes signing KK made Varsho a bit more useless after the trade and they should have prioritized a corner bat but you can’t choose who will actually sign with you in free agency. It would obviously be nice to have Moreno today but I have zero issues with Kirk as the starting catcher. He’s generally healthy, he’s the gold standard defensively, he has a great bat.

[Brownie19]

Just noticed Spencer Horwitz finished the year with a 98 wRC+ and just 0.1 WAR.  Great 1st half, terrible 2nd half.  Hope he can turn it around.

[Spanky__99]

3 hours ago, Brownie19 said:

Just noticed Spencer Horwitz finished the year with a 98 wRC+ and just 0.1 WAR.  Great 1st half, terrible 2nd half.  Hope he can turn it around.

IIRC, he started cold, got red hot has a significant injury, came back and scuffled... injuries blow.

[jaysblue]

I know the advanced metrics weren’t always kind to him, and defensively he was never anything special, but do you think Carlos Delgado deserves to be in Cooperstown someday?

When you look at the offensive numbers, he was one of the better power hitters in baseball for a good 10–12 year stretch. I also think he gets underrated because he spent most of his prime playing in relatively smaller baseball markets at the time with Toronto and Florida before eventually joining the Mets.

He had some monster seasons, especially in 2000 and 2003, and finished his career with 473 HRs, 1,512 RBI and a .280/.383/.546 slash line with a 135 wRC+.

He also ranks 32nd all-time in career slugging percentage, ahead of names like Albert Pujols, Jeff Bagwell, Ken Griffey Jr., Sammy Sosa, Lance Berkman and Chipper Jones. That’s pretty impressive company.

I guess the biggest thing holding him back is that he never reached the 50-WAR threshold. But even then, when you compare his overall career value to someone like David Ortiz, who spent most of his career at DH, or even Todd Helton, who played half his games at Coors Field, Delgado really wasn’t that far off.

I’m not saying he’s an obvious Hall of Famer, but I do think his case deserves more consideration than it usually gets. He was probably one of the more underrated sluggers during that time period in comparison to other sluggers at the time. 

Blue Jays lineup could really use a Delgado slugger right now! 

[John_Havok]

9 minutes ago, jaysblue said:

I know the advanced metrics weren’t always kind to him, and defensively he was never anything special, but do you think Carlos Delgado deserves to be in Cooperstown someday?

When you look at the offensive numbers, he was one of the better power hitters in baseball for a good 10–12 year stretch. I also think he gets underrated because he spent most of his prime playing in relatively smaller baseball markets at the time with Toronto and Florida before eventually joining the Mets.

He had some monster seasons, especially in 2000 and 2003, and finished his career with 473 HRs, 1,512 RBI and a .280/.383/.546 slash line with a 135 wRC+.

He also ranks 32nd all-time in career slugging percentage, ahead of names like Albert Pujols, Jeff Bagwell, Ken Griffey Jr., Sammy Sosa, Lance Berkman and Chipper Jones. That’s pretty impressive company.

I guess the biggest thing holding him back is that he never reached the 50-WAR threshold. But even then, when you compare his overall career value to someone like David Ortiz, who spent most of his career at DH, or even Todd Helton, who played half his games at Coors Field, Delgado really wasn’t that far off.

I’m not saying he’s an obvious Hall of Famer, but I do think his case deserves more consideration than it usually gets. He was probably one of the more underrated sluggers during that time period in comparison to other sluggers at the time. 

Blue Jays lineup could really use a Delgado slugger right now! 

I put him in, simply because if he'd hit 27 more HRs he would have been a 1st ballot. 27 HRs short of some arbitrary round number is hardly enough to jut forget about a guy. 

8 year peak from 1998 to 2005....

302 HRs, .293/.407/.580 ... OPS+ 153.  wRC+ 149. 35.9 fWAR

In his 43 PA post season experience... absolute beast with a 202 wRC+ and a .757 SLG

That late career injury killed him. He was still raking at 37 for the Mets before the hip finally gave out for good. 

He's a guy that I think the HoF was trying to include when they talk about ".....integrity, character, and sportsmanship..."   A guy whose numbers are right on the cusp, but had that extra class in him. Clemente award winner. Never linked to 'roids in the 'roid era. I vaguely remember him protesting the Iraq war at some point by staying in the dugout for the anthem or something. (maybe that's the reason the US media won't vote for him?). Not a single player ever has a bad thing to say about him. 

Should be in. Veteran's committee needs to pull their head out of their ass. It's not like there's some massive gap between him and McGriff. 

[jaysblue]

19 minutes ago, John_Havok said:

I put him in, simply because if he'd hit 27 more HRs he would have been a 1st ballot. 27 HRs short of some arbitrary round number is hardly enough to jut forget about a guy. 

8 year peak from 1998 to 2005....

302 HRs, .293/.407/.580 ... OPS+ 153.  wRC+ 149. 35.9 fWAR

In his 43 PA post season experience... absolute beast with a 202 wRC+ and a .757 SLG

That late career injury killed him. He was still raking at 37 for the Mets before the hip finally gave out for good. 

He's a guy that I think the HoF was trying to include when they talk about ".....integrity, character, and sportsmanship..."   A guy whose numbers are right on the cusp, but had that extra class in him. Clemente award winner. Never linked to 'roids in the 'roid era. I vaguely remember him protesting the Iraq war at some point by staying in the dugout for the anthem or something. (maybe that's the reason the US media won't vote for him?). Not a single player ever has a bad thing to say about him. 

Should be in. Veteran's committee needs to pull their head out of their ass. It's not like there's some massive gap between him and McGriff. 

All excellent points and agree. 

That 8-year peak is pretty insane. When you actually look at the numbers, it’s almost Juan Soto-esque in terms of sustained elite offensive production.

His career ended earlier than guys like Ortiz, Pujols, Cabrera and Helton due to that late career hip injury at 37. He still was putting up solid power numbers in his mid-30's and yeah if he played for another 2-3 more seasons, for sure he would have surpassed 500 HR's and might have reached 50 WAR. 

Also, guys like Cabrera and Pujols started to decline in their mid-30's at the ages of 34/35, whereas Delgado didn't power wise. Guys like Cabrera and Pujols were pretty much negative WAR players for their 6-7 last seasons in the bigs. Delgado aged better and was still raking.