General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2023)

[L54]

Is JD not the best value on the market and perfect fit for this team?

 

With zero hesitation no

 

You missed a lot in the clink. JD hit .190 and is almost 40 years old. It’s over for him

[L54]

Josh Donaldson MIGHT get a big league deal

 

Minor league deal okay sure let’s see what you’ve got

 

I am wondering why he would subject himself to the embarrassment. Just hang em up and call it career

[wilko]

Josh Donaldson MIGHT get a big league deal

 

Minor league deal okay sure let’s see what you’ve got

 

I am wondering why he would subject himself to the embarrassment. Just hang em up and call it career

 

He should have retired after 2021.

[Jimcanuck]

Josh Donaldson MIGHT get a big league deal

 

Minor league deal okay sure let’s see what you’ve got

 

I am wondering why he would subject himself to the embarrassment. Just hang em up and call it career

 

No question, he should have announced his retirement when the season ended. Now he's going to retire with a dick tuck when no team offers a MLB deal.

 

Maybe in March the Jays offer him a 1 day deal and make some money off Frenchsoup with a Josh Donaldson day.

[Dick_Pole]

I think most posters on here even preferred to trade/shop Jansen first before Kirk and Moreno because he was older, injury prone and had less years of control.

 

Kirk was overhyped on this board by many and still is. Teams were concerned with his conditioning and his huge second half slump in 2022. Even the Jays preferred moving Kirk over Moreno if they had the choice according to Sorrow. Regardless, looks like the value of all three catchers on the trade market weren't what we thought according to Sorrow's intel. A lot of teams had concerns regarding all three.

 

The big problem I have with this narrative (not with you saying it, just the narrative in general)...is of f***ing course the rest of the league is going to push this opinion because they can smell from a mile away Atkins' sweaty desperation. It was up to him to go into March with all three planned to be on the roster (and no obvious glaring holes like in the OF) and let some team sweat it out and overpay.

 

All three have glaring weaknesses just as all three have the ability to be top 15 catchers in this league (of note, even top 15 catchers have weaknesses because that's the nature of the position). Let Arizona roster some third string shitbag until Carroll gets thrown into the conversation. That's what a good GM would have done.

[max silver]

Guys talking about Disengagements when we're about to get Ohtaniiiii lol

 

Seems like somebody is setting himself up for disappointment.

[max silver]

The big problem I have with this narrative (not with you saying it, just the narrative in general)...is of f***ing course the rest of the league is going to push this opinion because they can smell from a mile away Atkins' sweaty desperation. It was up to him to go into March with all three planned to be on the roster (and no obvious glaring holes like in the OF) and let some team sweat it out and overpay.

 

All three have glaring weaknesses just as all three have the ability to be top 15 catchers in this league (of note, even top 15 catchers have weaknesses because that's the nature of the position). Let Arizona roster some third string shitbag until Carroll gets thrown into the conversation. That's what a good GM would have done.

 

There's a snowball's chance in hell Carroll would have ever been on the table for any of the Blue Jays catchers.

[Brownie19]

The big problem I have with this narrative (not with you saying it, just the narrative in general)...is of f***ing course the rest of the league is going to push this opinion because they can smell from a mile away Atkins' sweaty desperation. It was up to him to go into March with all three planned to be on the roster (and no obvious glaring holes like in the OF) and let some team sweat it out and overpay.

 

All three have glaring weaknesses just as all three have the ability to be top 15 catchers in this league (of note, even top 15 catchers have weaknesses because that's the nature of the position). Let Arizona roster some third string shitbag until Carroll gets thrown into the conversation. That's what a good GM would have done.

 

You keep pushing this narrative. I don't think there's any evidence to support that this happened though, or that waiting it out would have landed us a pot of gold. You can keep "thinking" that's the case, but, IMO, you probably shouldn't be so confident that it's true.

[Jimcanuck]

There's a snowball's chance in hell Carroll would have ever been on the table for any of the Blue Jays catchers.

 

Not even Adley would have pried Carroll from the dbacks.

[Angrioter]

Mlb network mock trade:

 

Jays: Alonso and McNeil

 

Mets: Vladdy Jr and Manoah

[Laika]

Mlb network mock trade:

 

Jays: Alonso and McNeil

 

Mets: Vladdy Jr and Manoah

 

Horrible deal lmao

[deanmike]

Mlb network mock trade:

 

Jays: Alonso and McNeil

 

Mets: Vladdy Jr and Manoah

 

Atkins hangs up the phone laughing, easy no from the Jays.

[Ehjays]

Mlb network mock trade:

 

Jays: Alonso and McNeil

 

Mets: Vladdy Jr and Manoah

 

New York media are the worst

[Stangstag]

Mlb network mock trade:

 

Jays: Alonso and McNeil

 

Mets: Vladdy Jr and Manoah

 

Hard pass

[BTS]

I'd probably take the Alonso side if they could immediately extend him for like 8/160 or something. Otherwise it's a clear no.

[Dick_Pole]

You keep pushing this narrative. I don't think there's any evidence to support that this happened though, or that waiting it out would have landed us a pot of gold. You can keep "thinking" that's the case, but, IMO, you probably shouldn't be so confident that it's true.

 

I keep pushing it because it's the accurate one. The tell is Arizona's insistence on Gurriel being included in the trade. He's of such inconsequential value that they are either trolling Atkins or are stupid if they say they would walk away from the deal without him. Either way, the correct move is to wait. Sign Kiermaier and come back next month to see if their tone has changed, given that Toronto's perceived need for outfield defense has decreased after that signing.

 

If not, then you change the narrative. Have Moreno take reps at 3B. With the intent that you want to take a look at him as a possible Chapman replacement. Then say to the Diamondbacks "Yeah, call us again next year about Varsho, we are good with Kiermaier but might be interested in 2024. Meanwhile we want to give a year to evaluate Moreno". See if they flinch.

[Jimcanuck]

I keep pushing it because it's the accurate one. The tell is Arizona's insistence on Gurriel being included in the trade. He's of such inconsequential value that they are either trolling Atkins or are stupid if they say they would walk away from the deal without him. Either way, the correct move is to wait. Sign Kiermaier and come back next month to see if their tone has changed, given that Toronto's perceived need for outfield defense has decreased after that signing.

 

If not, then you change the narrative. Have Moreno take reps at 3B. With the intent that you want to take a look at him as a possible Chapman replacement. Then say to the Diamondbacks "Yeah, call us again next year about Varsho, we are good with Kiermaier but might be interested in 2024. Meanwhile we want to give a year to evaluate Moreno". See if they flinch.

 

This only works if the d'backs were or would eventually be desperate, which is unlikely to be true. The likely result from your approach is the d'backs fill their catching need from elsewhere and the Jays are still making calls to try and unload one of the 3.

[John_Havok]

The big problem I have with this narrative (not with you saying it, just the narrative in general)...is of f***ing course the rest of the league is going to push this opinion because they can smell from a mile away Atkins' sweaty desperation. It was up to him to go into March with all three planned to be on the roster (and no obvious glaring holes like in the OF) and let some team sweat it out and overpay.

 

All three have glaring weaknesses just as all three have the ability to be top 15 catchers in this league (of note, even top 15 catchers have weaknesses because that's the nature of the position). Let Arizona roster some third string shitbag until Carroll gets thrown into the conversation. That's what a good GM would have done.

 

There isn’t a GM dumb enough to trade a guaranteed stud like Carroll for a catcher. Not even Preller would do that.

[Key22]

Mlb network mock trade:

 

Jays: Alonso and McNeil

 

Mets: Vladdy Jr and Manoah

 

I suppose it would help to know what the real relationship between Manoah and the Jays really is. There is no guarantee that Manoh will ever return to form.

 

Pete Alonso had a 3.2 WAR last year and provides power (46 homers) that the Jays could certainly use. Vladdy had a 2.0 WAR and seems as dumb as dogshit. You are giving up 2 years of Vlad for one year of Alonso.

 

McNeil offers 2.4 WAR (already more value than Vladdy last year) and gives the Jays a Merrifield replacement. McNeill was a 5.1 WAR player in 2022 and is signed through 2026 with 2027 as an option. If you feel like he is more of the 2022 player then this trade isn't that bad.

 

It all depends on what you think Manoah is - was it a one year fluke being bad or was the good season the fluke?

 

Vladdy is more of a name - he wasn't good defensively last year and he is a double-play machine. Now, apparently he had family issues last year but if you do not plan to give him a long term contract and he isn't hitting or fielding all that well - then in return you are getting two proven bats who can help you win in 2024.

 

The Jays are trading for 5.6 WAR and giving up 2.0 WAR Vlad and -1.1 WAR Manoha (combined 0.9 WAR). Is this what Vlad and Manoah are because if yes - I make this trade in a heartbeat. Is Vlad the projected next Hank Aaron and Manoah the next top 5 Cy Young candidate? They sure don't look like it to me.

[Joltin Joe]

Passans new article explicitly only lists three teams as "chasing" Shohei and the Jays are one of them. Doyers and the Rangers the other two. Other teams might have already bowed out.

 

Ohtani rumours deserves it own thread. Be Jays biggest acquisition since Roger Clemens

[Key22]

Ohtani rumours deserves it own thread. Be Jays biggest acquisition since Roger Clemens

 

I think the only real argument against going for Ohtani is roster construction due to the luxury tax punishments. Teams with real money don't worry about the draft too much because they tend to be good teams and select lower down the draft. Moreover, the draft is a crapshoot and rarely do teams get big stars lower down the list.

 

So a big-budget team doesn't care about losing the 2nd and 5th-round pick for signing free agents. The Jays have one of the deepest-pocketed organizations in baseball. But they are run by suits - in the case of signing someone like Ohtani - it usually requires a Steve Cohen - A billionaire who is willing to way overspend because he wants what he wants. In order to land Ohtani - he has to turn down more money from the Mets or Dodgers I suspect to play in Toronto.

 

That's possible IF he simply likes Canada more than the USA. I certainly do but then it's different when you're a hundred millionaire. Canada has nice safety nets for the middle class - but the uber-wealthy don't need social safety nets like free medical. He can live in a massive mansion in Hollywood with big-boobed models on the beaches of California. Plus he already knows California. So, my question is - how do you sell him on the Blue Jays? The Mets are willing to have a $ 350 million payroll -- the Dodgers too probably. The Jays? We know they have the money - technically they CAN run that payroll but I doubt the suits would allow it. They have their "process" and rational reasoned calculations. Cohen doesn't - the beancounters might tell him player X is worth $20m and no more but he is willing to spend $40m to get him. A board of directors style management won't do that.

 

So that means Ohtani would have to take less to go to Toronto knowing the team won't likely continue spending to surround him with elite talent. Cohen can easily sign Ohtani AND Yamamoto AND Snell AND Bellinger AND trade for Trout AND sign HADER AND trade for SOTO. Wouldn't even be a blip on his bank balance. Sure the Mets stunk last year but you know as a player that the ownership is willing to spend idiotic money.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Key22

[jaysblue]

McNeil is signed to a very team friendly contract through 2026 with an AAV of $12.5M. Even after a down season, he still posted a 2.6 WAR. He's just one year removed from a 5.7 WAR season and he posted 4.9 WAR back in 2019. Only downside with McNeil is his age and he doesn't hit for much power. He kind of reminds me a bit of Justin Turner. Late bloomer and who could hit for a very high BA with 15-20 HR's in any given season offensively. He also fills the 2B void for the next three or four seasons as well.

 

Alonso is a proven power hitter and you know he's good for 3-4 WAR at least with 40 HR's. He's in a contract year as well, so he's definitely going to be motivated. Would be nice if the Jays could extend Alonso. Vlad on the other hand offers more upside and two years of control vs. one. However, Vladdy also could be a pumpkin again, and only produce 1.0 WAR. Plus he's going to get paid $18-20M each season through arbitration likely.

 

Manoah depends a lot on the relationship with the club and FO now. We really don't know how things are. If things are sour, Atkins isn't going to come out publicly and say it since that will impact the leverage the Jays have in trade. If Manoah and the Jays worked things out and he agrees to come into ST next year in better shape, a bounce back is definitely possible.

 

Overall, it's a tough call but I'm definitely leaning towards that offer if the Jays feel like Vladdy can't be fixed over the next year or two and if the relationship with Manoah has completely soured. Jays have a shorter window now, so you have to really emphasize the importance of the 2024 and 2025 seasons when you have guys like Bo still under club control and guys like Gausman still pitching in top form. Also, have to remember the Jays like will add around this trade as well, so this lineup could end up looking really good with other additions through FA and trade.

[xposbrad]

I think the only real argument against going for Ohtani is roster construction due to the luxury tax punishments. Teams with real money don't worry about the draft too much because they tend to be good teams and select lower down the draft. Moreover, the draft is a crapshoot and rarely do teams get big stars lower down the list.

 

So a big-budget team doesn't care about losing the 2nd and 5th-round pick for signing free agents. The Jays have one of the deepest-pocketed organizations in baseball. But they are run by suits - in the case of signing someone like Ohtani - it usually requires a Steve Cohen - A billionaire who is willing to way overspend because he wants what he wants. In order to land Ohtani - he has to turn down more money from the Mets or Dodgers I suspect to play in Toronto.

 

That's possible IF he simply likes Canada more than the USA. I certainly do but then it's different when you're a hundred millionaire. Canada has nice safety nets for the middle class - but the uber-wealthy don't need social safety nets like free medical. He can live in a massive mansion in Hollywood with big-boobed models on the beaches of California. Plus he already knows California. So, my question is - how do you sell him on the Blue Jays? The Mets are willing to have a $ 350 million payroll -- the Dodgers too probably. The Jays? We know they have the money - technically they CAN run that payroll but I doubt the suits would allow it. They have their "process" and rational reasoned calculations. Cohen doesn't - the beancounters might tell him player X is worth $20m and no more but he is willing to spend $40m to get him. A board of directors style management won't do that.

 

So that means Ohtani would have to take less to go to Toronto knowing the team won't likely continue spending to surround him with elite talent. Cohen can easily sign Ohtani AND Yamamoto AND Snell AND Bellinger AND trade for Trout AND sign HADER AND trade for SOTO. Wouldn't even be a blip on his bank balance. Sure the Mets stunk last year but you know as a player that the ownership is willing to spend idiotic money.

 

That's a good point. If the Jays had several top 50 prospects coming up and had several team friendly deals for their core (ala Atlanta) it would make sense. But, Ohtani takes the jays to their max payroll with several holes and Bichette not signed long term. We can always end up like the Angels, which none of us want. Older players with massive contracts all declining.

[Jimcanuck]

Fantrax projects an .898 OPS for Trevor Larnach, Jays need to go get him.

[BTS]

Fantrax projects an .898 OPS for Trevor Larnach, Jays need to go get him.

 

Are they shopping him? Their OF is far from crowded with Kepler, Wallner, and I guess Castro holding down spots.

[Jimcanuck]

Are they shopping him? Their OF is far from crowded with Kepler, Wallner, and I guess Castro holding down spots.

 

Nah, my post is sarcasm about FT projections.

[Frenchsoup]

Jimmy we need Willi Calhoun in left field or Winky

[BTS]

Nah, my post is sarcasm about FT projections.

 

Ah, didn't even notice you had referenced FT. Actually, looking over my rosters they don't seem quite as outrageous this year.

[Brownie19]

Fantrax projects an .898 OPS for Trevor Larnach, Jays need to go get him.

 

Someone else suggested we trade for Trevor Larnach a few weeks ago. Not sure who it was.

[Jimcanuck]

Someone else suggested we trade for Trevor Larnach a few weeks ago. Not sure who it was.

 

MikeM