GDT: Jays @ Brewers Game 3 of 3

[Terminator]

I just don’t think you can be good for long without elite pitching dev and we aren’t even in the top half of the mlb in that department.

 

I like our hitting. We just suck so bad at developing pitching. Berrios is probably just bad luck and Kikuchi was a risk anyway. But, other teams make trades where they identify a guy in triple A who could be a 5th starter and they work him up to a quality no.4. Other teams identify guys they can turn into good bullpen arms.

 

We just spend money and assets and expect that to do everything. You need to be smart as well and we aren’t smart.

 

Lol they took Robbie Ray off the scrap heap and turned him into the Cy Young winner last year. Their 2019 first rounder looks like an ace. Really bad take my man.

[Dokken]

I just don’t think you can be good for long without elite pitching dev and we aren’t even in the top half of the mlb in that department.

 

I like our hitting. We just suck so bad at developing pitching. Berrios is probably just bad luck and Kikuchi was a risk anyway. But, other teams make trades where they identify a guy in triple A who could be a 5th starter and they work him up to a quality no.4. Other teams identify guys they can turn into good bullpen arms.

 

We just spend money and assets and expect that to do everything. You need to be smart as well and we aren’t smart.

 

We’ll prob make the playoffs this year. We might win because the playoffs are luck, but we aren’t going to be good forever like the astros or the rays like this. Pitching dev is the MOST important thing and we suck.

 

 

So is it a matter of not having the right kind (aka proficient) of coaching on the minor league affiliates? There has to be a reason the Jays suck while the Rays and Astros excel

[Dagagad]

Lol they took Robbie Ray off the scrap heap and turned him into the Cy Young winner last year. Their 2019 first rounder looks like an ace. Really bad take my man.

 

Robbie Ray was previously an excellent pitcher. If you cycle through enough guys who used to have insanely nasty stuff and used to be good, some of them will work out.

 

Where are all the bullpen arms? Where are all the back up starters in triple A? Where is the random 6th starter we got from someone else who we worked into a 4th starter. We spend a lot of assets on pitching compared to most teams and on aggregate we don’t get a great return.

[Dokken]

Lol they took Robbie Ray off the scrap heap and turned him into the Cy Young winner last year. Their 2019 first rounder looks like an ace. Really bad take my man.

 

I hadn't realized it at the time, but last season, Robbie Ray set the record for most strikes outs by a major league pitcher in his first 1000 innings pitched. He definitely made adjustments last season that helped turn things around. Who knows how much just a change of environment helped as well.

[Dagagad]

So is it a matter of not having the right kind (aka proficient) of coaching on the minor league affiliates? There has to be a reason the Jays suck while the Rays and Astros excel

 

I think our major league pitching dev is absolutely behind a ton of teams. We never get mentioned when people talk about it. Maybe the same for the minors. I know we recently overhauled that.

 

I think we also kind of suck at identifying players to target. That to me is the rays real elite skill. The astros are the absolute kings of developing starting pitching with the Yankees.

[Terminator]

Robbie Ray was previously an excellent pitcher. If you cycle through enough guys who used to have insanely nasty stuff and used to be good, some of them will work out.

 

Where are all the bullpen arms? Where are all the back up starters in triple A? Where is the random 6th starter we got from someone else who we worked into a 4th starter. We spend a lot of assets on pitching compared to most teams and on aggregate we don’t get a great return.

 

We're in the bottom 3rd in the bullpen but it's not a complete tire fire and we've invested almost nothing into it. It's a problem though and needs to be addressed at the deadline. AAA depth is bad too, there's not doubt. AA on down all have interesting names though.

 

The random sixth starter that we worked into a #4 is Ross Stripling.

[Dagagad]

We're in the bottom 3rd in the bullpen but it's not a complete tire fire and we've invested almost nothing into it. It's a problem though and needs to be addressed at the deadline. AAA depth is bad too, there's not doubt. AA on down all have interesting names though.

 

The random sixth starter that we worked into a #4 is Ross Stripling.

 

Lol. He was a 6th starter for the dodgers. The dodgers usually have 8 starters who could start on 27 teams.

 

You shouldn’t have to invest much in the bullpen and still have a good one. That’s what the best teams do. Even the Yankees have their high paid free agents injured and they still have a good pen.

 

We’ve had good injury luck this year also, which is crazy.

[Terminator]

Lol. He was a 6th starter for the dodgers. The dodgers usually have 8 starters who could start on 27 teams.

 

You shouldn’t have to invest much in the bullpen and still have a good one. That’s what the best teams do. Even the Yankees have their high paid free agents injured and they still have a good pen.

 

We’ve had good injury luck this year also, which is crazy.

 

Well we got the 6th starter from the Dodgers for a nothing prospect. If the Dodgers are as good as you say (and I agree with you on that) then that's a pretty damn good trade wouldn't you say?

 

The bullpen needs to be better than it is. I agree with you. I don't think it's worth tanking the season so Atkins gets fired though.

 

The injury luck has been pretty good, Ryu and Pearson notwithstanding.

 

Regardless, I agree with you that the pitching needs to be better. Berrios and Kikuchi look like absolute dogshit and that's not good considering the amount of money we are paying them. They need to get it going and I think they can. The bullpen needs more high velocities arms but it's basically one trade away from being fine, two trades away from being good. Anyway, I think overall Shatkins has been doing fine, just need to shore up some of the pitching (which has been a lot better than you are giving it credit for this year!).

[Dagagad]

Well we got the 6th starter from the Dodgers for a nothing prospect. If the Dodgers are as good as you say (and I agree with you on that) then that's a pretty damn good trade wouldn't you say?

 

The bullpen needs to be better than it is. I agree with you. I don't think it's worth tanking the season so Atkins gets fired though.

 

The injury luck has been pretty good, Ryu and Pearson notwithstanding.

 

Regardless, I agree with you that the pitching needs to be better. Berrios and Kikuchi look like absolute dogshit and that's not good considering the amount of money we are paying them. They need to get it going and I think they can. The bullpen needs more high velocities arms but it's basically one trade away from being fine, two trades away from being good. Anyway, I think overall Shatkins has been doing fine, just need to shore up some of the pitching (which has been a lot better than you are giving it credit for this year!).

 

To me it’s a process thing. We don’t do the things that good teams do and we don’t have the same kinds of pitchers. It’s just off. It’s not elite.

 

I don’t even think walker is a bad pitching coach. At the major league level we are probably above average. We just don’t create the same type of arms out of seemingly nowhere that the Yankees, rays and astros do and it puts a very firm ceiling on our potential.

 

You can win and kind of suck at this. The cubs did, but you can’t be good long term.

[JFD]

Two L's to Chi Chi f***ing Gonzales lol

[Effit]

It’s just not good enough lately.

[Terminator]

To me it’s a process thing. We don’t do the things that good teams do and we don’t have the same kinds of pitchers. It’s just off. It’s not elite.

 

I don’t even think walker is a bad pitching coach. At the major league level we are probably above average. We just don’t create the same type of arms out of seemingly nowhere that the Yankees, rays and astros do and it puts a very firm ceiling on our potential.

 

You can win and kind of suck at this. The cubs did, but you can’t be good long term.

 

Lol you are making huge generalizations based upon a good 1/3 of a season from the Yankees (who have won the division once in the past 10 years with 0 WS despite a massive payroll) who have a horseshoe up their ass right now and a rough couple of weeks from our rotation (who still are ranked 7th in WAR!). Even so, their SP WAR isn't that much better than ours to this point. They are 2nd in SP WAR and we are 7th with about a WAR and a half difference between the two of us.

[Dokken]

It’s just not good enough lately.

 

This seems like a very demoralized team right now. They score 3 in the top of the 1st and then 10 unanswered runs with only 4 hits the rest of the game.

[Dagagad]

Lol you are making huge generalizations based upon a good 1/3 of a season from the Yankees (who have won the division once in the past 10 years with 0 WS despite a massive payroll) who have a horseshoe up their ass right now and a rough couple of weeks from our rotation (who still are ranked 7th in WAR!). Even so, their SP WAR isn't that much better than ours to this point. They are 2nd in SP WAR and we are 7th with about a WAR and a half difference between the two of us.

 

It’s based on 7 years of them being here. I’ve had this opinion for like the last 4 years.

 

Edit: strongly held for the last 2. I don’t know how people fool themselves on this. We are nowhere near the other teams on this.

Edited June 26, 2022 by Dagagad

[max silver]

Lol. He was a 6th starter for the dodgers. The dodgers usually have 8 starters who could start on 27 teams.

 

You shouldn’t have to invest much in the bullpen and still have a good one. That’s what the best teams do. Even the Yankees have their high paid free agents injured and they still have a good pen.

 

We’ve had good injury luck this year also, which is crazy.

 

I'm not sure I fully agree here with regards to the bullpen and injuries. Pearson was expected to be a big contributor, and he's missed the entire season up to this point due to mono (that's about as bad of luck as possible), Merryweather is injured (no surprise there obviously), Garcia is injured, Mayza missed time due to injury and Borucki missed time due to injury. Many of these guys were obvious injury risks and a few of them were ineffective even when healthy, but injuries in the pen have absolutely been an issue.

 

Why LOL to Stripling being a rather effective starter? Just because he came from the Dodgers it doesn't mean he wasn't a great pickup that the front office deserves credit for.

 

There have been success stories in the past with unheralded players who were effective out of the bullpen. The 2020 bullpen had several such stories in players like Dolis, Cole and Bass. 2021 saw a sneaky good pickup in Cimber who was attained for peanuts, and Richards was a good pickup as well. Gage has the appearance of being one of these types of successful turnarounds in the early going, and it remains to be seen who will be acquired in the not too distant future to shore up the pen this year.