2021 Collective Bargaining Agreement Discussion Thread

[Brownie19]

I've been in good unions and bad unions, but it's inarguable that the decline of unions has coincided with the ridonkulously massive income inequality crisis we face. We explored unionizing the company I work for a few years ago, but we had some (unrelated) staffing changes. I would 100% rather be in a union job than not.

 

Interesting - I must admit I wasn't aware there was a decline in unions. What has caused this?

[Spanky99]

There’s willingness at least. Listen, in fantasy I’m usually a person that puts a good offer out there right away. There’s some people that negotiate like Mlb is doing and I’m not a fan of that but I think a mediator would be productive.

 

lol... *smh*

[Krylian]

I've been in good unions and bad unions, but it's inarguable that the decline of unions has coincided with the ridonkulously massive income inequality crisis we face. We explored unionizing the company I work for a few years ago, but we had some (unrelated) staffing changes. I would 100% rather be in a union job than not.

 

I was part of a union once. A steady increase in pay was always a nice thing you could count on. The most frustrating thing was how people miked the system and abused things knowing full well how virtually impossible it is to fire someone for being s*** at their job. Protecting the wrong people annoys me.

[Jimcanuck]

I was part of a union once. A steady increase in pay was always a nice thing you could count on. The most frustrating thing was how people miked the system and abused things knowing full well how virtually impossible it is to fire someone for being s*** at their job. Protecting the wrong people annoys me.

 

Not impossible, but a lot of work for management to document performance issues and take the progressive steps to a dismissal.

[John_Havok]

Manfred is actually on hand for today's negotiations according to a few reports. He's never been present in the negotiating rooms prior to today. Thats a good sign i guess?

[Grant77]

If we're set on grabbing a lefty bat then one option would be to sign Michael Conforto and trade one of our existing corner outfielders. Playing Biggio full time at 2B again will help the lineup balance a great deal as well.

 

If we're looking for a left handed batter at 3B then we are probably out of luck. It's best to grab a guy like Chapman and fit in another bat elsewhere in my view.

 

Maybe you get Conforto and Chapman and trade Gurriel in a package for a younger pitcher, while saving our young prospects and keeping payroll reasonable.

Edited February 25, 2022 by Grant77

[John_Havok]

If we're set on grabbing a lefty bat then one option would be to sign Michael Conforto and trade one of our existing corner outfielders. Playing Biggio full time at 2B again will help the lineup balance a great deal as well.

 

If we're looking for a left handed batter at 3B them we are probably out of luck. It's best to grab a guy like Chapman and fit in another bat elsewhere in my view.

 

Sign Conforto, package Gurriel + top end prospect as the main return for J-Ram and ... yup.

[Deadpool]

Interesting - I must admit I wasn't aware there was a decline in unions. What has caused this?

 

A massive, massive effort from corporations to crush unions.

 

How hard corporations fight against unions should tell you exactly how good they are for workers.

[Ehjays]

[John_Havok]

 

For reference, this is what the draft framework looked like yesterday:

 

[Krylian]

Not impossible, but a lot of work for management to document performance issues and take the progressive steps to a dismissal.

 

Impossible was an exaggeration, but yes, so many hoops to jump through and so time consuming to track, monitor, document, put on performance plans, monitor and document those, etc, etc, etc.

[Krylian]

A massive, massive effort from corporations to crush unions.

 

How hard corporations fight against unions should tell you exactly how good they are for workers.

 

Employers would rather have performance based pay.

High value employees would rather have this too.

[Brownie19]

A massive, massive effort from corporations to crush unions.

 

How hard corporations fight against unions should tell you exactly how good they are for workers.

 

Impossible was an exaggeration, but yes, so many hoops to jump through and so time consuming to track, monitor, document, put on performance plans, monitor and document those, etc, etc, etc.

 

And that's the issue. The unions protects good employees and really s***** ones too. It also doesn't seem to give anyone a reason to work hard. In my industry we hire people who came from unionized municipalities and there are plenty of stories about how they got told to stop working so hard and how they could just milk the system all day long.

 

Easy to say "we know unions are good because Corporations are trying to stop them" - but there are some valid reasons for that. The same could be said for why people push to unionize...everyone wants to get paid too much to make puppies.

[Krylian]

It also doesn't seem to give anyone a reason to work hard.

 

Bingo. Plus everything is seniority based, which makes sense in theory for vacation time and such, but when it impacts business operations...

 

Quick example. I was working as a Tech Dispatcher and was good at my job. They wanted to move me to a 6am shift as I was fast, organized, and had a good sense of workload requirements, etc. So they wanted me in early to get s*** lined up and in order for when the techs started at 7. Did it for a few months, everything was going well. Someone with more seniority complained cause she wanted the shift. So they had to give it to her. She did it for a couple of months and they ended up getting rid of the shift altogether cause she kept f***ing everything up in the mornings.

[connorp]

I believe in unions, even though I’ve been on the other side. The reason is this, I know there’s a lot of s***** managers out there. Imo I would guess this is across many different industries than just mine. A s***** manager is one that manages one employee different than another for whatever reason, that may not be valid

 

Productivity is something covered in the CBA in my industry at least. You need to establish reasonable expectations of production. Is there benefit to an employee going above and beyond, not really. But some do just bc that’s who they are. Management opportunities are also an option for some to work towards.

 

In my experience, I’ve been successful working with them. It’s all how you approach it. The cost definitely, definitely sucks though. On the flip side, you aren’t subject to the s***** hiring situation many non-union places are in, less turnover, etc

[Ehjays]

[Ehjays]

[Ehjays]

 

[Spanky99]

C'mon...

[Ehjays]

C'mon...

 

I know, I thought we were getting close, this is frustrating

[Grant77]

I believe in unions, even though I’ve been on the other side. The reason is this, I know there’s a lot of s***** managers out there. Imo I would guess this is across many different industries than just mine. A s***** manager is one that manages one employee different than another for whatever reason, that may not be valid

 

Productivity is something covered in the CBA in my industry at least. You need to establish reasonable expectations of production. Is there benefit to an employee going above and beyond, not really. But some do just bc that’s who they are. Management opportunities are also an option for some to work towards.

 

In my experience, I’ve been successful working with them. It’s all how you approach it. The cost definitely, definitely sucks though. On the flip side, you aren’t subject to the s***** hiring situation many non-union places are in, less turnover, etc

 

I manage a small group of union employees and don't find it to be that much of a problem. There have been productivity issues at times, but if you address and document them right from the start then you have justification for releasing the employee if that becomes necessary. That may not be the case in all unions, but I find they are good for both sides.

[Deadpool]

Easy to say "we know unions are good because Corporations are trying to stop them" - but there are some valid reasons for that. The same could be said for why people push to unionize...everyone wants to get paid too much to make puppies.

 

You don't think the reason Amazon and Starbucks are fighting (in many cases illegally) so hard (in many cases illegally) against locations unionizing is because it will give their employees more power to bargain? They're not doing it because they think some workers are going to start slacking off...

[glory]

Based on today's results, seems like the only way baseball will begin (either March 31 or any time after that) is if the players cave. I don't think the owners care if they miss games or even a season. They'll survive. It's the players who lose guaranteed money, lose a year of their careers, etc. I don't think we see a resolution to this any time soon. I hope I'm wrong and they figure something out by Monday, but that's looking like a pipe dream.

 

Last year the Jays missed the playoffs by 1 game in large part due to not being allowed to play home games for 4 months, and now have a roster that on paper looks like it could contend for the playoffs even if they are not expanded and we don't even know when or if the season will begin. Having to sit through the 2017-19 seasons only to get completely screwed when the competitive window begins. Frustrating. I could stomach a 60 game season during the pandemic due to the circumstances, but a shortened season because the two sides couldn't figure out how to split $10b is ridiculous.

[John_Havok]

Here’s the “progress” today in a nutshell

 

https://www.thescore.com/mlb/news/2305943

 

The players were infuriated to the point they considered walking away from the bargaining table, a person familiar with their plans told The Washington Post's Chelsea Janes.

 

The MLBPA dropped its request to expand arbitration eligibility from 75% of players with two-to-three years of service time to 35%, according to The Athletic's Evan Drellich. (It’s currently 22%)

 

Neither side offered any change to the minimum salary structure or the pre-arbitration bonus pool, according to Drellich.

 

The union's proposal also included coming down $2 million on the competitive-balance tax thresholds each year from 2023 to 2025, Janes added. The league countered with an offer to raise the threshold only in the second year of the agreement from $214 million to $215 million. (Seems like the union made the more significant give)

 

MLB also offered to lower luxury tax penalties to 45% for the first threshold, 62% for the second, and 95% for the third, according to ESPN's Jesse Rogers. (Owners concession)

 

The league reiterated wanting the window of notice to unilaterally impose on-field changes shortened from the current one year to 45 days, which the players didn't receive well, Passan reports. (Unilateral powers with 45 days notice instead of 1 year….really? Wtf owners….)

 

And just when it looked like they were on the verge of agreeing on 4-team draft lottery, that blew up too when MLB insisted on 14-team playoff pool instead of union’s proposal of 12. (Honestly can understand why the owners are taking the hard stance here that’s a lot of extra cash and don’t really get the players reluctance to go to 14)

 

The negative tone of Saturday's negotiations also represented a backtrack from the optimism on Friday that they were close to an agreement on a draft lottery.

[Grant77]

Here’s the “progress” today in a nutshell

 

https://www.thescore.com/mlb/news/2305943

 

The players were infuriated to the point they considered walking away from the bargaining table, a person familiar with their plans told The Washington Post's Chelsea Janes.

 

The MLBPA dropped its request to expand arbitration eligibility from 75% of players with two-to-three years of service time to 35%, according to The Athletic's Evan Drellich. (It’s currently 22%)

 

Neither side offered any change to the minimum salary structure or the pre-arbitration bonus pool, according to Drellich.

 

The union's proposal also included coming down $2 million on the competitive-balance tax thresholds each year from 2023 to 2025, Janes added. The league countered with an offer to raise the threshold only in the second year of the agreement from $214 million to $215 million. (Seems like the union made the more significant give)

 

MLB also offered to lower luxury tax penalties to 45% for the first threshold, 62% for the second, and 95% for the third, according to ESPN's Jesse Rogers. (Owners concession)

 

The league reiterated wanting the window of notice to unilaterally impose on-field changes shortened from the current one year to 45 days, which the players didn't receive well, Passan reports. (Unilateral powers with 45 days notice instead of 1 year….really? Wtf owners….)

 

And just when it looked like they were on the verge of agreeing on 4-team draft lottery, that blew up too when MLB insisted on 14-team playoff pool instead of union’s proposal of 12. (Honestly can understand why the owners are taking the hard stance here that’s a lot of extra cash and don’t really get the players reluctance to go to 14)

 

The negative tone of Saturday's negotiations also represented a backtrack from the optimism on Friday that they were close to an agreement on a draft lottery.

 

Manfred is dead set on implementing a pitch clock, even though it was not effective in AAA and the players and fans are both against it. There are better ways to improve the flow of the game, to be sure, starting with these 12 minute long reviews.

[Ehjays]

[John_Havok]

 

Good.

 

 

Based on todays info it seems like if the PA gave the 14 team playoffs and mlb gave the 35% super 2….that puts both those issues to bed.

 

Leaves the CBT, min salary and whatever the unilateral super power problem is along with revenue sharing left.

[Abomination]

Good.

 

 

Based on todays info it seems like if the PA gave the 14 team playoffs and mlb gave the 35% super 2….that puts both those issues to bed.

 

Leaves the CBT, min salary and whatever the unilateral super power problem is along with revenue sharing left.

 

I don't understand why the players are against the expanded playoffs anyway. More teams being competitive means more teams willing to pay for free agents and fewer rebuilding, and more playoff games means more money to the players in the playoffs.

[Krylian]

I don't understand why the players are against the expanded playoffs anyway. More teams being competitive means more teams willing to pay for free agents and fewer rebuilding, and more playoff games means more money to the players in the playoffs.

 

More players playing for free come playoff time.

[glory]

I don't understand why the players are against the expanded playoffs anyway. More teams being competitive means more teams willing to pay for free agents and fewer rebuilding, and more playoff games means more money to the players in the playoffs.

 

The players want 12 teams while the owners want 14, so the players are ok with expanded playoffs, just not 14 teams. Which is kind of stupid because we are talking one extra team in each league making it so it's hardly a huge difference. My guess is they are holding out on that because it's the one piece of legitimate leverage they have on the owners so they are using it as their biggest/only bargaining chip.

 

Based on what I've read, the owners have been consistent in that they won't budge on 1) revenue sharing and 2) the super 2 percentage. The players keep trying to make changes to this, but it seems futile since the owners don't even consider it something to be bargained. My guess is if there's any chance for movement in the next 2 days it will be if the players concede on those two issues. They'd get their increased minimum, and the owners might marginally increase the pre arb bonus if the players back off the super 2 stuff. The draft lottery seems like a minor/petty argument to begin with so I don't think that means much in the long run. It's the CBT that is going to be make or break this, and it sounds like "break" is more realistic at this rate.