2021 Collective Bargaining Agreement Discussion Thread

[Abomination]

Regarding a salary floor, it doesn't have to be so punitive necessarily. They could simply say teams have a floor of, say, 80M, and if they drop below that value the difference is automatically divided evenly among all players on that team's 25 man roster or something. Teams could still run a full group of prospects out there if they felt it was in the team's best interest, but there would be no extra incentive beyond that for being under. There would be a lot of happy prospects too! They could do something similar for a soft cap. Set it at, say, 200M and automatically tax at 50%, but divide the money between all active 25 man roster players in the league.

 

Putting that money into the players hands would make the concept a lot more agreeable for the MLBPA while still meeting the goals of the owners.

[InsideThePark]

The only way I can see to fix the service time issue is a strict free agent age. Everyone is a free agent at 29. Years 26, 27, and 28 are arbitration years. If the player makes the league before then he gets league minimum the first year and then marginal increases based on how he statistically performs up to a maximum of double his previous years salary.

 

Anything that uses service time is going to result in teams holding players down until they're just under whatever the limit is. The players offer back in November had a hybrid system IIRC of 6 years service time or age 29. That might fix the problem for a Julien Merryweather who's never going to reach 6 years service time before he's 29(he's already older), but the high end guys are the ones teams manipulate. Vladdy is still going to be held down for the handful of days at the start of his rookie year so he reaches 5.9 years of service time at the end of his 6th season so the team gets an extra year. So not even the PA's suggestion solves the issue they're trying to fix

[Abomination]

The only way I can see to fix the service time issue is a strict free agent age. Everyone is a free agent at 29. Years 26, 27, and 28 are arbitration years. If the player makes the league before then he gets league minimum the first year and then marginal increases based on how he statistically performs up to a maximum of double his previous years salary.

 

Anything that uses service time is going to result in teams holding players down until they're just under whatever the limit is. The players offer back in November had a hybrid system IIRC of 6 years service time or age 29. That might fix the problem for a Julien Merryweather who's never going to reach 6 years service time before he's 29(he's already older), but the high end guys are the ones teams manipulate. Vladdy is still going to be held down for the handful of days at the start of his rookie year so he reaches 5.9 years of service time at the end of his 6th season so the team gets an extra year. So not even the PA's suggestion solves the issue they're trying to fix

 

You could have predefined base salaries plus WAR escalators or something. If the player reached the free agent threshold during the season, then they would be paid based on their average WAR per game over the past 320 games or something for the remainder of the season.

[Dick_Pole]

I actually like the idea of getting a draft pick if your top prospect succeeds. Not in any way as a bargaining chip in the CBA, but as a feature for baseball. Just get rid of the ambiguous and arbitrary top 150 rank and have it apply to any rookie who rakes. It will encourage teams to spend just that little bit more in player development, especially if some dude out of nowhere takes a big leap.

[Dick_Pole]

My proposal - which in no way would ever get accepted but if I was a baseball czar - would be each player gets six years service time, flat. So if a player gets called up on May 30, 2022, he becomes a free agent on May 30, 2028. Yes, in the MIDDLE of the season. The only exception to this would be September call-ups. So you get a plethora of September call-ups which is basically free time for the teams and a chance for prospects to get some playing time at the MLB level and something for fans of non-contending teams to cheer for. Service time manipulation is dead. If someone is good enough to make the team out of the spring, he makes it.

[Jimcanuck]

My proposal - which in no way would ever get accepted but if I was a baseball czar - would be each player gets six years service time, flat. So if a player gets called up on May 30, 2022, he becomes a free agent on May 30, 2028. Yes, in the MIDDLE of the season. The only exception to this would be September call-ups. So you get a plethora of September call-ups which is basically free time for the teams and a chance for prospects to get some playing time at the MLB level and something for fans of non-contending teams to cheer for. Service time manipulation is dead. If someone is good enough to make the team out of the spring, he makes it.

 

That would be interesting, although I would expect that between say mid May and September few prospects would get called up, as no team would want a player to become a free agent mid season.

 

Why not make it a player becomes eligible for free agency at the end of the 6th season after their debut, except when the debut is on September 1 or later, in which case it is the end of the 7th season after their debut.

 

This would promote player's debut being on the 1st game of the season, which everyone wants, because who doesn't want to see how the heralded rookie does from the outset. It would also reduce the disincentive for mid-season callups that is a drawback of your idea.

[Krylian]

My proposal - which in no way would ever get accepted but if I was a baseball czar - would be each player gets six years service time, flat. So if a player gets called up on May 30, 2022, he becomes a free agent on May 30, 2028. Yes, in the MIDDLE of the season. The only exception to this would be September call-ups. So you get a plethora of September call-ups which is basically free time for the teams and a chance for prospects to get some playing time at the MLB level and something for fans of non-contending teams to cheer for. Service time manipulation is dead. If someone is good enough to make the team out of the spring, he makes it.

 

I like the idea of a player becoming a FA mid-season because it would be a s*** show and I'm sure there would be teams that would f*** things up royally. Sounds like a high entertainment opportunity.

[John_Havok]

Why not make it a player becomes eligible for free agency at the end of the 6th season after their debut,…

 

This is how the owners spin the current system, it’s intended to work exactly like that. Free agency after the end of the season when you’ve accumulated 6 years of service time. But because of how they calculate service time you end up with guys under control for 7 seasons or longer.

 

Until they remove the “days of service” as the way the calculate a season, the problem still exists. The wording has to be concrete.

 

For me, it’s simple, any player who is first called up in any season, it’s free agency at the end of the 6th season from the debut date or as of the end of the season where you’re 29, or you turn 29 after the current season but before the next one starts, whichever comes first. End of story. No calculations of days of the season. Called up the first game of the season in 2022 at age 21? Congrats, you’re a free agent at the end of 2027. Called up on the last day of the season in 2022? Free agent after 2027.

 

I don’t care how many games you play, or days spent on the roster in any year. Send him to the minors? Doesn’t matter. DFA’d at any point and removed from the 40 man in 2025, only to re-sign and not make the 40 man again until 2027? Too bad. Still a free agent after 2027. Signed elsewhere? Oh well, that team has to let you go after 2027.

 

Any player of course could still sign an extension to negate this if they were offered the chance.

 

Same scenario with a guy who’s 24 at his debut in 2022, except he gets to be a free agent a year earlier.

[Jimcanuck]

That's exactly what I am saying, just use the end of the 6th season after the debut. No more manipulation of service time, or at least, a lot less - a player won't debut until the team is reasonably sure the player won't be going back to the minors. Will see the s***** ass vet get the call rather than the hotshot prospect with control issues or swing and miss concerns, more so than today.

[John_Havok]

That's exactly what I am saying, just use the end of the 6th season after the debut. No more manipulation of service time, or at least, a lot less - a player won't debut until the team is reasonably sure the player won't be going back to the minors. Will see the s***** ass vet get the call rather than the hotshot prospect with control issues or swing and miss concerns, more so than today.

 

Yup. And even those guys that get called up for emergency starts, pen relief, backup IF…whatever, the clock starts. Even if they don’t end up being used more than once in that season, their MLB free agency date is known, unless they sign other contracts that take them past that date. It’s a simple system and has no possible potential for abuse by owners that I can think of.

[Jimcanuck]

Yup. And even those guys that get called up for emergency starts, pen relief, backup IF…whatever, the clock starts. Even if they don’t end up being used more than once in that season, their MLB free agency date is known, unless they sign other contracts that take them past that date. It’s a simple system and has no possible potential for abuse by owners that I can think of.

 

It would be an overall win for the players (and the fans), and the owners can use it to gain concessions in other areas.

 

KISS principle is golden in contracts.

[TwistedLogic]

Good points yeah, this system likely wouldn’t do anything to fix the problem. And im not really sure there IS a way to fix the problem

 

There's a fairly easy way to fix the problem: If a player exhausts his rookie eligibility, he gets credit for his first year of service. The second a batter has completed his 130th at-bat or a pitcher has thrown his 50th inning, he's guaranteed to end the season with 1.000 service time, regardless of how much more or little he plays. The remaining 5 years of service are calculated the same way as they are now. Simple.

 

Teams couldn't hold players down anymore or they'd have to wait till the last quarter of the season.

[John_Havok]

There's a fairly easy way to fix the problem: If a player exhausts his rookie eligibility, he gets credit for his first year of service. The second a batter has completed his 130th at-bat or a pitcher has thrown his 50th inning, he's guaranteed to end the season with 1.000 service time, regardless of how much more or little he plays. The remaining 5 years of service are calculated the same way as they are now. Simple.

 

Teams couldn't hold players down anymore or they'd have to wait till the last quarter of the season.

 

THat would be a small first step sure. Any time that "days on the roster" is used to calculate service time, it can and will be manipulated for extra seasons of control.

[Jimcanuck]

There's a fairly easy way to fix the problem: If a player exhausts his rookie eligibility, he gets credit for his first year of service. The second a batter has completed his 130th at-bat or a pitcher has thrown his 50th inning, he's guaranteed to end the season with 1.000 service time, regardless of how much more or little he plays. The remaining 5 years of service are calculated the same way as they are now. Simple.

 

Teams couldn't hold players down anymore or they'd have to wait till the last quarter of the season.

 

The gaming would continue, batters sent back down after ~120 AB or pitcher sent down @ 42 innings pitched. Have to limit the use of arbitrary values. Just count it from the day of debut, and it doesn't matter what happens after the day of debut.

[jerb]

 

Jeff Passan

@JeffPassan

 

Major League Baseball and the MLB Players Association plan to meet Monday, when the union is expected to present a counteroffer to the league’s proposal last week, sources tell ESPN.

 

This would be the second meeting between the sides since MLB locked out players on Dec. 2.

[Abomination]

Over / under on the meeting lasting longer than 15 mins?

[Spanky99]

Over / under on the meeting lasting longer than 15 mins?

 

Under. This is the end of Phase 1.

[Deadpool]

 

Jeff Passan

@JeffPassan

 

Major League Baseball and the MLB Players Association plan to meet Monday, when the union is expected to present a counteroffer to the league’s proposal last week, sources tell ESPN.

 

This would be the second meeting between the sides since MLB locked out players on Dec. 2.

 

It's 2022, just Email things back and forth until you're close enough that an in person meeting will actually be productive, and not just for show...

[Grant77]

Over / under on the meeting lasting longer than 15 mins?

 

I'm naturally optimistic. I'll say they go 20 minutes this time.

[John_Havok]

 

Jeff Passan

@JeffPassan

 

Major League Baseball and the MLB Players Association plan to meet Monday, when the union is expected to present a counteroffer to the league’s proposal last week, sources tell ESPN.

 

This would be the second meeting between the sides since MLB locked out players on Dec. 2.

 

10 days from when they got the offer from MLB... what took so long? SPEED IT UP BOYS!

[Spanky99]

10 days from when they got the offer from MLB... what took so long? SPEED IT UP BOYS!

 

And 6 weeks for the MLB to offer up a sand bagger to start... f***ing grinds my gears.

[John_Havok]

And 6 weeks for the MLB to offer up a sand bagger to start... f***ing grinds my gears.

 

Really the only good thing overall from the first offer by MLB was that the PA didn't just laugh and leave the room.

[Grant77]

The two sides are meeting today. I'm not optimistic, but hopefully the meeting is actually a couple of hours and they discuss things like a normal bargaining session.

[John_Havok]

The two sides are meeting today. I'm not optimistic, but hopefully the meeting is actually a couple of hours and they discuss things like a normal bargaining session.

 

I'm not optimistic either. What will likely happen is the players will submit their proposal containing 15 things they want but know they wont get. The owners will look at it and completely disregard it, just like the union did on the owners first proposal... and Manfred will come out and say "based on this offer it's clear the union is not interested in negotiating...etc etc blah blah" and the union will say "we submitted what we think is a fair and reasonable offer and it's now out of our hands until we see the owners next proposal....etc etc blah blah..."

 

This negotiation could really be over soon if the players union accepts they cannot get everything they want and truly just focus on 1or 2 wins... get your minimum salary increase (but make it worth it), arbitration at the start of year 3 - and call it a win. In exchange, you keep the luxury tax as is for now and agree to expanded playoffs.

 

Universal DH both sides want, so that gets thrown in, and the deal is done by the end of the week. Save the service time manipulation and revenue sharing until the next go around.

[Jimcanuck]

The two sides could just extend the current CA for 1 year with some mutually agreeable things like universal DH, and come up with a plan to negotiate the stickier stuff over the next year.

 

This would be the smart business approach if they can't hammer something out by February 15. Baseball is f***ed if there is a lengthy 2022 disruption.

[John_Havok]

The two sides could just extend the current CA for 1 year with some mutually agreeable things like universal DH, and come up with a plan to negotiate the stickier stuff over the next year.

 

This would be the smart business approach if they can't hammer something out by February 15. Baseball is f***ed if there is a lengthy 2022 disruption.

 

They'll never do anything like that though. The only time anything gets done is when games being missed is on the line. If they agree to extend the current CBA for 1 year, they will literally do NOTHING until January of 2023 when games are on the line... may as well do it now and get it over with

[Jimcanuck]

They'll never do anything like that though. The only time anything gets done is when games being missed is on the line. If they agree to extend the current CBA for 1 year, they will literally do NOTHING until January of 2023 when games are on the line... may as well do it now and get it over with

 

Historically, yes, along with many other industries. But most employer-union issues are now dealt with by various mechanisms that do not involve labour disruption. Baseball needs to get out of the dinosaur age.

[John_Havok]

Historically, yes, along with many other industries. But most employer-union issues are now dealt with by various mechanisms that do not involve labour disruption. Baseball needs to get out of the dinosaur age.

 

Agreed, but telling dinosaurs that they need to move out of the dinosaur age is easier said than done.

[Ehjays]

The two sides could just extend the current CA for 1 year with some mutually agreeable things like universal DH, and come up with a plan to negotiate the stickier stuff over the next year.

 

This would be the smart business approach if they can't hammer something out by February 15. Baseball is f***ed if there is a lengthy 2022 disruption.

 

f*** that, get it ironed out now. I don't want to go through this every year. Baseball is f***ed if this becomes an annual event as well. So both sides should be locked in a room and dont come out until you have a deal.

[Grant77]

The two sides could just extend the current CA for 1 year with some mutually agreeable things like universal DH, and come up with a plan to negotiate the stickier stuff over the next year.

 

This would be the smart business approach if they can't hammer something out by February 15. Baseball is f***ed if there is a lengthy 2022 disruption.

 

Both sides are using the threat of missed games as leverage. I think there's about a zero percent chance that this happens. It really shouldn't happen either. A sense of urgency is the only way things will get done.