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[max silver]

In pro sports, there’s always going to be a team that gives the problem player a spot if elite production is still a possibility. Short of like an Aaron Hernandez thing

 

During the early years with Anthopulous at the helm the Jays were this organization. They brought aboard Rasmus, Lawrie and Yunel Escobar all aboard despite the bad reputations each guy held. Clubhouse chemistry wasn't really worried about at the time, but later on mediocre veterans were brought in a feeble attempt to smooth over the potential clubhouse headaches. I can't say I miss the days of deadweights like Kevin Millar, Mark DeRosa and Omar Vizquel in the slightest. That front office had no qualms about completely wasting roster spots. At least when they acquired Munenori Kawasaki he ended up being worth a few laughs here and there.

[Deadpool]

During the early years with Anthopulous at the helm the Jays were this organization. They brought aboard Rasmus, Lawrie and Yunel Escobar all aboard despite the bad reputations each guy held. Clubhouse chemistry wasn't really worried about at the time, but later on mediocre veterans were brought in a feeble attempt to smooth over the potential clubhouse headaches. I can't say I miss the days of deadweights like Kevin Millar, Mark DeRosa and Omar Vizquel in the slightest. That front office had no qualms about completely wasting roster spots. At least when they acquired Munenori Kawasaki he ended up being worth a few laughs here and there.

 

Hey, Muni managed to put up a positive WAR as a part time player in all 3 seasons he was with the Jays, that's better than our starting shortstop at the time was doing.. He wasn't JUST entertaining, he was a passable bench piece.

[Grant77]

During the early years with Anthopulous at the helm the Jays were this organization. They brought aboard Rasmus, Lawrie and Yunel Escobar all aboard despite the bad reputations each guy held. Clubhouse chemistry wasn't really worried about at the time, but later on mediocre veterans were brought in a feeble attempt to smooth over the potential clubhouse headaches. I can't say I miss the days of deadweights like Kevin Millar, Mark DeRosa and Omar Vizquel in the slightest. That front office had no qualms about completely wasting roster spots. At least when they acquired Munenori Kawasaki he ended up being worth a few laughs here and there.

 

I don't know if it's fair to compare guys with a perceived attitude problem to a guy with a domestic abuse charge. The players you listed are more like a Trevor Bauer situation.

[max silver]

I don't know if it's fair to compare guys with a perceived attitude problem to a guy with a domestic abuse charge. The players you listed are more like a Trevor Bauer situation.

 

Early Bauer may be a good comparison as a guy who didn't get along with his first organization and was labelled a troublemaker. Since then I don't really recall any clubhouse or team chemistry issues with Bauer though.

 

An interesting side point to the Jays "vetrin presents" phase is how Omar Vizquel was likely brought to the Blue Jays to babysit Yunel Escobar. But later on it was revealed that he has a very dark side himself. It goes to show how little we really know about most of these guys lives behind the scenes. Jose Reyes looked to be the friendliest happy go lucky guy in existence on a baseball field but he too turned out to be a total piece of s*** off of the field. At least with Trevor Bauer he places a bunch of his more undesirable character flaws right out in the open.

[dineke]

AA peddled so much crap out there. The 2013 was such an especially hilarious disaster.

 

Edit: Looking back on old Blue Jays teams I think JPR was a better Jays GM than AA lol.

[Deadpool]

AA peddled so much crap out there. The 2013 was such an especially hilarious disaster.

 

Edit: Looking back on old Blue Jays teams I think JPR was a better Jays GM than AA lol.

 

JPR was SO BAD AT DRAFTING though. He was like "my priority is high floor college guys who can be basically average, but SOON!"

[Jimcanuck]

AA's best attribute is negotiating contracts, something he's displaying in Atlanta. Although asking players for donations to sign Ervin was a bad look.

 

AA still having trouble putting together a complete team though.

[Jays24]

AA's best attribute is negotiating contracts, something he's displaying in Atlanta. Although asking players for donations to sign Ervin was a bad look.

 

AA still having trouble putting together a complete team though.

 

His drafting and ability to swing for the fences was great too. Didn't workout in '13 but worked really well in '15.

 

Still feel we should have won the title in '15. That was the most fun I've ever had watching baseball (was too young to enjoy the early 90s teams properly)

[Jays24]

We were +110 runs better in differential than the 2nd place team, the Astros.

 

I remember trying to find another instance where a team was that far ahead of 2nd place, and I don't think I could. What can you do, Royals magic.

 

Still breaks my heart thinking about that series and how it ended.

[metafour]

His drafting and ability to swing for the fences was great too.

 

Drafting under AA was really propped up by the billion high picks we had. In reality we could have done even better with a more process-driven approach that combined his "high upside" plan with more background analytics and planning to better maximize those picks.

[Jays24]

Drafting under AA was really propped up by the billion high picks we had. In reality we could have done even better with a more process-driven approach that combined his "high upside" plan with more background analytics and planning to better maximize those picks.

 

Crazy how almost all those prospects ended up flaming out pretty early in their careers. It's why I never get too attached to prospects if it means we are getting proven elite MLBers. His trade for Donaldson was what turned his tenure around.

[43211234]

I was looking back at some of AA's drafts and 2015 has to be one of the worst drafts by a team ever lol

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/draft/?team_ID=TOR&year_ID=2015&draft_type=junreg&query_type=franch_year&from_type_jc=0&from_type_hs=0&from_type_4y=0&from_type_unk=0

 

Travis Bergen's 1.2 innings are probably the only thing the Blue Jays are going to get from that entire class. Brady Singer wasn't signed and his pick turned into JB Woodman.

[dineke]

That Donaldson trade really saved AA's career.

[Jays24]

That Donaldson trade really saved AA's career.

 

Getting an MVP will do that for anyone in almost every sport.

[G-Snarls]

That Donaldson trade really saved AA's career.

 

And all the compensation picks. Most of those worked out better than his first rounders.

[Boxcar]

I mean, there's a pretty large difference between 4/65 (or 5/80) and 5/50. I'm not saying that Ozuna isn't the better player, or that the contract isn't a great deal for the Braves, just like... "I got this Toyota for $50K, when I could have gotten that BMW for $80K" isn't something the average person complains about.

 

Ozuna is worth probably triple what Grichuk is worth so even with the significant difference in guaranteed dollars, the point still stands.

 

Probably more than triple, tbh. That's conservative. Easy to see Ozuna putting up 5 WAR while we will hope for Grichuk to scrape average.

[TwistedLogic]

Drafting under AA was really propped up by the billion high picks we had. In reality we could have done even better with a more process-driven approach that combined his "high upside" plan with more background analytics and planning to better maximize those picks.

 

While you have a point, Anthopoulos was the reason they had the billion high picks in the first place. I don't know if there was another GM in baseball that did a better job of gaming the draft compensation rules than AA did. The only other example I can think of is the Rays draft in 2011, which was far more of a garbage fire than any of the Jays drafts.

 

AA is one of the primary reasons the draft compensation rules were changed.

[Boxcar]

While you have a point, Anthopoulos was the reason they had the billion high picks in the first place. I don't know if there was another GM in baseball that did a better job of gaming the draft compensation rules than AA did. The only other example I can think of is the Rays draft in 2011, which was far more of a garbage fire than any of the Jays drafts.

 

AA is one of the primary reasons the draft compensation rules were changed.

 

That's great and all, but you kinda need to hit on some of those picks to give that strategy any credibility. AA hit on, from what I can recall, two guys in the first round in Syndergaard (comp pick? Think that counts as first round) who he traded with a kicker for the corpse of RA Dickey and Marcus Stroman, the overrated midget douchebag.

[Orgfiller]

Ozuna is worth probably triple what Grichuk is worth so even with the significant difference in guaranteed dollars, the point still stands.

 

Probably more than triple, tbh. That's conservative. Easy to see Ozuna putting up 5 WAR while we will hope for Grichuk to scrape average.

 

Strongly disagree tbh. I don't buy Ozuna as a JDM esque hitter after one excellent third of a season and previously peaking as a 5 WAR player exactly once 3 seasons prior and that was when teams viewed him as an actual outfielder which for some reason no longer appears to be the case.

[dineke]

While you have a point, Anthopoulos was the reason they had the billion high picks in the first place. I don't know if there was another GM in baseball that did a better job of gaming the draft compensation rules than AA did. The only other example I can think of is the Rays draft in 2011, which was far more of a garbage fire than any of the Jays drafts.

 

AA is one of the primary reasons the draft compensation rules were changed.

 

Yeah everyone on the old Blue Jays forums were all-in on AA during that time. Too bad they missed on almost every draft pick despite hiring the most scouts out of any team which is hilarious in hindsight because that was made to be a big deal.

[Brownie19]

That's great and all, but you kinda need to hit on some of those picks to give that strategy any credibility. AA hit on, from what I can recall, two guys in the first round in Syndergaard (comp pick? Think that counts as first round) who he traded with a kicker for the corpse of RA Dickey and Marcus Stroman, the overrated midget douchebag.

 

While I have to agree that the end product wasn't good, AA did draft several players who were very highly regarded, but simply never turned out for whatever reason.

 

Sanchez

Norris

Pompey

Alford

Hoffman

Pentecost

 

He also did draft

 

Joe Musgrove

Matt Boyd

Kevin Pillar (not that he deserves a ton of credit here)

Tellez

Jansen

Romano

Borucki

Sam Dyson

Patrick Murphy

 

OK - his drafting wasn't great, but he did use loopholes in the system to rebuild the system and he used that perceived value to land us players that helped us win (Price, Tulo, etc.). Perhaps you might say he needed all those extra picks because even a broken clock is right twice a day...What's interesting is that Tinnish has been a main stay throughout both regimes.

 

AA also deserves credit for unloading V.Wells, landing Morrow, Lawrie (even if he didn't work out), Estrada, etc...and of course for signing Vlad.

Edited February 9, 2021 by Brownie19

[Ray]

While I have to agree that the end product wasn't good, AA did draft several players who were very highly regarded, but simply never turned out for whatever reason.

 

The reason was because we had a player development system that was still in the stone age. It was still very much a sink or swim, we'll see who comes out alive approach. I don't even think we were doing individualized development plans for prospects until Shapiro/Atkins got here. I'm less certain about technology, but we might've lagged on that front too.

 

I doubt we see a guy like Biggio become what he has under AA/Beeston. That seems to me like a prime example of how much this player development system has improved. Biggio was a 4th rounder with fringey-average grades on just about everything but his eye, and he went from OPS'ing in the low .700's in the lower minors into one of the better 2B's in the game. You could make a case for Teoscar too, who looks like he's made some real strides over the past seasons worth of his games on his plate discipline.

[metafour]

While you have a point, Anthopoulos was the reason they had the billion high picks in the first place. I don't know if there was another GM in baseball that did a better job of gaming the draft compensation rules than AA did. The only other example I can think of is the Rays draft in 2011, which was far more of a garbage fire than any of the Jays drafts.

 

AA is one of the primary reasons the draft compensation rules were changed.

 

Of course he gets credit for that, but the post I quoted pointed out his "DRAFTING" as being really good (of course it also wasn't HIS drafting).

 

In reality he accumulated a TON of high picks (genius move) which through sheer numbers produced some good prospects. It also produced a ton of biblical flameouts (see: Tyler Gonzalez or whatever his name was lmao) and a horrendous "process" to drafting which saw us repeatedly fail to sign top picks. The below average player development during his tenure also plays into that as well, as obviously some of those busts may well have developed differently under a better system of development. AA really got a ton of credit for drafting/minor league building after JPR's failure in that sphere, but we're actually much stronger in this area under the Shapiro/Atkins regime. All you need to see is the extremely calculated and precise way they execute drafts: they make sound picks following an obvious process, take risks where presented/needed, and sign EVERYONE. Their drafts come down to spending almost every dollar allotted to them, and you can really tell that they're vetting players significantly and doing their work.

 

Draft results under AA declined significantly once the MLB closed the comp-pick loophole and he had to play with the same base number of picks as everyone else. His drafts in Atlanta haven't been very noteworthy either, IMO.

[Boxcar]

Strongly disagree tbh. I don't buy Ozuna as a JDM esque hitter after one excellent third of a season and previously peaking as a 5 WAR player exactly once 3 seasons prior and that was when teams viewed him as an actual outfielder which for some reason no longer appears to be the case.

 

Ok, well, going by Steamer projections then. Grichuk @ 1 WAR, Ozuna over 3.

[Orgfiller]

Ok, well, going by Steamer projections then. Grichuk @ 1 WAR, Ozuna over 3.

 

Oh I'm not saying Ozuna isn't a lot better/valuable than Grichuk. Just not buying the 5 WAR thing. I'd say it's more likely Grichuk is a ~1.5-2 WAR player and Ozuna 3-3.5 than 1 vs 5 kind of thing.

[Boxcar]

Oh I'm not saying Ozuna isn't a lot better/valuable than Grichuk. Just not buying the 5 WAR thing. I'd say it's more likely Grichuk is a ~1.5-2 WAR player and Ozuna 3-3.5 than 1 vs 5 kind of thing.

 

Ok, misunderstanding

[Ray]

Great post. AA/Beeston front office were a scout driven organization, not data driven. I believe they did not even have an analytics department - just a couple analytics people who may or may not have had AA’s ear at times.

 

Napoli for Francisco in January 2011 should have been the first red flag that AA/Beeston were out of touch with reality. Trading a 2.5-3 WAR position player for a volatile reliever after the Angels gifted you him because Moreno wanted Vernon Wells.

 

Certainly there were some good buy low deals that Brownie pointed out. But were those deals made because of data or scouts’ gut feelings?

 

If the Donaldson deal does not happen, the 2015/16 Blue Jays don’t exist as we know them and AA is probably not running the Braves right now. Good for him.

 

I could go on and on but IMO, Shatkins >>>>> JPR > AA/Beest.

 

I don’t necessarily fault Anthopoulos for the lack of resources put into player development. Seems like that type of stuff should’ve fallen on Beestons shoes to figure out and invest in.

 

Anthopoulos and Atkins are a wash to me. There is no doubt in my mind though that Shapiro is a vastly superior President than Beeston was towards the tail end of his career. Not only does he invest in the right things, he also seemingly inspires confidence with ownership. I don’t know if they dish out money for the Dunedin reno’s or the Springer/Ryu contracts without him.

[The Iceman]

When Beeston was the bean counter the Jays had multiple years of swimming with the big boys vying for FA. Top payroll in MLB in 93

 

Winfield, Molitor, Clemens, Jack Morris, Jose Canseco the likes we have not seen signed since. Beeston was a top respected President and helped put The Jays on the map.

[Jimcanuck]

I thought Pat Gillick was the primary architect of the glory years.

[Grant77]

I thought Pat Gillick was the primary architect of the glory years.

 

Beeston and Gillick worked together for 17 seasons. It's pretty safe to say that they both had a role in the success of the team. People look down on Beeston because of some things he said in his second stint, but he was extremely respected and competent in his day.